Critical Mass....NOT COOL.

[nostatic]

I rode today from west LA to Santa Monica and back. Major streets (Santa Monica Bl, 2 or 3 lanes each direction depending on where you are). I don't ride in the middle of a lane, and generally try to stay as far right as possible....but I avoid riding in the gutter because it is dangerous due to crap and lack of traction. Plus I don't want to be invisible.

I bend the rules when I'm on a bicycle, but not much worse than most cars. I don't blow stop signs when there is traffic coming the other way. But when I slow down at a 4-way stop and there is no one waiting the other direction, I'll roll through it. Giving up all your momentum sucks. For a driver it is no problem to step on the go pedal. On a bike it requires real effort.

Perhaps not the letter of the law, but certainly within the spirit. If traffic laws are about safety, my 20lb bicycle isn't exactly a rolling death machine threatening people. And as for taxing bicycles - sure, as long as it is apportioned by vehicle weight. Road expansion and repairs are due to increased cars - bicycles have almost zero impact on road surfaces. Plus other taxes paid go towards infrastructure so bicyclists are paying for the roads anyway.

There are jerk bicyclists, just like there are jerk drivers. The difference is that one is at a huge disadvantage and is much more at-risk. I don't agree with critical mass but understand the sentiment.

[Jim Bremner]

wow, I concur with Nostatic...hey, can I borrow your Aprilia?

[look 171]

Originally Posted by dmoolenaar

Back in the old days it was the tri guys who ignored the laws of the road. They would blast through stop signs and red lights wearing nothing but a speedo on their carbon bikes. Nothing like a big group ride up the coast, hammering on I-5 through Pendelton, and some dork riding in his aero bars touching a wheel...

Those dudes in Seattle need to be shut down. Some guy starts hitting my car and I can predict a few flattened bikes. I agree with M21, these guys are like the clone Harley dorks, minus a ton of chrome.

David,

You have been around for a long time. Crappy drivers were there in the good old days too, buy guys on their bikes didn't do stupid thing like ride in the middle of the street heads down doing 14 mph with their matching socks and outfits. The worst was a double pace line that buzz along. If it was a small group, it was always in a signal file and never had any problems. What the hell is with people today? 3 people with red and green shorts doing 3 across doing 11 mph talking??? Its their right to take up the whole lane. I know, I know, for safety, yeah right.

I know what you mean. I hate riding with tri guys. I don't want to be around them.

[look 171]

The other thing I can't stand are the freaking fix gear people. That craw up a slignt hill as you wait to turn left. Why ride such a piece of crap on the street and make everyone pay with their time. Yeah, he's real cool with a fix gear. There's a kid that live down the hill that like to ride up crawing. I walk faster then him, but nooo, i had to drive behind him and wait with a bunch of cars behind because its a singe line that twist and turn up the hill. I ask him once about pulling over, I get the same crap, about having as much right to use the road as anyone else. Butt heads. All of them. I am a true cyclyst at heart. rode and race roe many years. I just can't deal with the stupid ones anymore. Sorry for the whine.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by look 171

The other thing I can't stand are the freaking fix gear people. That craw up a slignt hill as you wait to turn left. Why ride such a piece of crap on the street and make everyone pay with their time. Yeah, he's real cool with a fix gear. There's a kid that live down the hill that like to ride up crawing. I walk faster then him, but nooo, i had to drive behind him and wait with a bunch of cars behind because its a singe line that twist and turn up the hill. I ask him once about pulling over, I get the same crap, about having as much right to use the road as anyone else. Butt heads. All of them. I am a true cyclyst at heart. rode and race roe many years. I just can't deal with the stupid ones anymore. Sorry for the whine.

The irony is golden in this one

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by speeder

I've never fully understood the dynamic between rude drivers and rude cyclists on the road. I've ridden a bicycle for ~40 years on public streets w/o ever having to hold-up cars by riding 10 mph in the middle of a lane and I've never had a problem going around a cyclist while giving them a safe amount of room when they are over to the right. They're only 2 ft. wide.

As for the "nice guy" BS argument that cyclists use for riding like a twat and blocking traffic, it isn't about being nice. It's about common sense. Cars are much heavier and faster+ you have no idea who is piloting them, I let them go by and give them as much room as possible. I ride on sidewalks for stretches if there isn't safe room on the street. (I'm talking places w/ no pedestrians in L.A. like past the V.A. on Wilshire for instance). The cool thing about bikes is that you are in between driving and walking, IMO, you can slow to a silent crawl through pedestrian areas and ride anywhere or make good time on roads slicing through traffic. Do I run stop signs when no one is around? Absolutely. But you can also get a ticket if a cop sees you, so it's my risk. I sure as hell do not challenge cars for the right-of-way. That is prima fascia proof of a Darwin candidate.

If they can't keep up with traffic, they should not be in a lane, it is that simple. Dangerous for everyone involved, that is why if you are blocking traffic, the law says you pull over, no matter what your mode of transport is.

I ride a bicycle, not as frequently as I would like and have no sympathy at all for 99% of the cyclists out there. They choose to ride in stupid places in unsafe ways. There is no reason at all for them to be riding on busy commute routes over 99% of the time, yet they still choose to do so, apparently to punish the people in cars. If I saw the case mentioned here, would very likely have waded in to defend the victims(the ones in the Subaru, not on the bikes.)

I would like to know how much time the assailants will do in state prison.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I would like to know how much time the assailants will do in state prison.

That, and I would also like to know what the city of Seattle plans to do about this in the future. There are bound to be further confrontations; that is what these folks are looking for.

Aren't there laws targeted as those inciting violence in a mob setting such as this? I would think the two that broke the windows should be prosecuted under these laws, at a bare minimum. The guy that clocked the motorist in the back of the head needs to do some hard time, and emerge on the other end with a class one felony on his record. Good luck finding any sort of way to make a decent living after that...

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by tobra

if They Can't Keep Up With Traffic, They Should Not Be In A Lane, It Is That Simple. Dangerous For Everyone Involved, That Is Why If You Are Blocking Traffic, The Law Says You Pull Over, No Matter What Your Mode Of Transport Is.

f N A

[onewhippedpuppy]

It takes an incredible sense of self-importance to believe you are tough on the back of a bicycle. Of course, that's what this group is all about. Were I attacked in my car by a group of bicycle thugs, I can assure you I would have driven away, regardless of whether or not they chose to move.

Sorry, but you have to know your limits. I drives me crazy when I see bicyclists riding a narrow two-lane with no shoulder, because you know that if there's an accident they will be portrayed as the victim. I see it as Darwin at work. Put yourself in a dangerous situation (200 lb vs 4000 lb), eventually it will catch up with you. While I always try to give bikes a wide berth, as I don't want someone's death on my conscience, ultimately roads are constructed for transportation. Bikes are for recreation, cars are for transportation. Sorry.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Says who?

I used my bicycle (that and the El trains) as my primary method of transportation in Chicago when I lived there. People the world over use them as their primary method of transportation. I'd love to see stats on it, but I'd be willing to bet more people use bicycles the world over for "real" transportation than use automobiles (think China, India, etc.)

This is completely two sides of the same coin - if the drivers weren't so selfish and inconsiderate/inattentive, then cyclists (the smart ones that aren't going out of their way to deliberately be a-holes like "Critical Ass" anyway) wouldn't have to take actions that make them appear to be selfish, inconsiderate and inattentive.

The roads are supposed to be shared - by automobiles, pedestrians, bicyclists and even horses. I'm a "car guy" too. I own a few Porsches. I like to drive pretty spirited at times, but I fully acknowledge that it is not my god-given right to drive in such a manner if there's any chance of it endangering someone. If I don't like being caught behind a slower vehicle (whatever kind), I pass when I can. That's life. This snooty, angst-filled attitude on the part of drivers that somehow bicyclists are beneath them or a nuisance or somehow an impediment to their oh-so-important schedules is ridiculous.

If a bicyclist is deliberately impeding traffic when other options are available, then yes - the bicyclist is being a d1ck and should use his/her head, use the alternative and get out of the way. P1ssing off drivers for no reason is unacceptable. HOWEVER (and here's the rub), p1ssing off drivers a little bit when there's NO ALTERNATIVE or when the alternative to "be Mr. Nice Guy" would result in a more dangerous situation IS acceptable. As stated above (and the same logic applies to motorcycling), I'd rather have a driver be a little irritated with me than oblivious to me. At least if they're momentarily annoyed, they're aware I'm there and my statistical chances of survival go up dramatically. It's simple numbers. I don't go out of my way to annoy people when I ride, but I'm not about to put myself in a riskier situation just because some macho-tough-guy driver thinks I have no right to be there. In most cases, a lot of you macho tough-guy types really need to suck it up and accept the fact that (heavens forbid) you actually don't own the entire road and as any kindergardener would tell you, "you have to learn to share".

Biking is a bit of a "gray area". You guys that p1ss and moan about how some cyclist is impeding you should either (1) leave earlier or (2) try it for yourself before chucking stones.

It's funny - the mornings I bike to work, I actually get here in EXACTLY the same amount of time (or shorter) as when I drive. No joke, I've timed it. YMMV with that (depends on route/commute). I'm seriously trying to get to a point where I bike to work 4-5 days a week (currently 1-2).

[gtc]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

We need to get speed limits for bikers! Revenue (um, I mean Radar) traps to catch those going over 20 mph.

Ironically, there is a 15mph speed limit on our most used bike path, the Burke-Gilman Trail, and some police departments do set up radar traps (Lake Forest Park, for you locals).

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

i think they all need to be licensed and tagged yearly, and go through a test just like car drivers do, so they may get a clue about traffic laws that pertain to them.

Jeez, we can't even do this effectively with drivers, how are we going to do it with cyclists?

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

That, and I would also like to know what the city of Seattle plans to do about this in the future. There are bound to be further confrontations; that is what these folks are looking for.

I can guarantee you that the CM crowd will have a HEAVY police escort for the next few months with PLENTY of citations handed out for people lacking helmets, obstructing traffic, and anything else they can find. In my college years I attended critical mass in several different cites, and we would work very hard to put out a positive image for cyclists. All it took was one or two punks getting in an argument with a motorist and we'd be have cops following us around for the next 3 months. Since having cops tail us was neither fun not good for our image, we would effectively police our own ranks and keep the confrontational people in the middle of the group.
I attended a few CMs in Seattle, but stopped going after the hipsters took over. The rides had turned from promoting bicycle awareness to thinly veiled hooliganism.

[gtc]

ROFL, the driver was late for a dinner reservation!

http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/last_nights_critical_mass_melee

[Scuba Steve]

Originally Posted by gtc

Ironically, there is a 15mph speed limit on our most used bike path, the Burke-Gilman Trail, and some police departments do set up radar traps (Lake Forest Park, for you locals).

Wow. I used the Interurban and Cedar River trails to get home from work (took the Sounder to get to work in the morning). I could see cops radaring people on either of the two trails, but the Interurban really was just people trying to get from point A to B since it runs through a lot of industrial areas in Kent and Auburn. The Cedar River trail picks up a lot more joggers when you get closer to Maple Valley and they really could find a lot of speeders going downhill there.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

If anyone has ever needed proof that our society is hugely over-policed and our priorities are ENORMOUSLY out-of-whack, there's your proof.

FOIA the average police department response time to violent crime 911 calls. That would make a tasty news story when juxtaposed with this "bicycle speed trap" B.S.

[Seric]

Take back the roads, you mean the ones made for motorized vehicles?

Punks. Touch my car and I breaka you face.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I'm not aware of any roads meant only for motorized vehicles except for interstate highways, some bridges and other such roads clearly marked with "no bicycles" signs. Of course if a bike rider is on a highway or other road that's a "no bicycles" zone, then they're just stupid.

My understanding is that any other road is fair game and must be shared - as it should be. ALL our taxes pay for those roads, not just the cars.

[Seric]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

I'm not aware of any roads meant only for motorized vehicles except for interstate highways, some bridges and other such roads clearly marked with "no bicycles" signs. Of course if a bike rider is on a highway or other road that's a "no bicycles" zone, then they're just stupid.

My understanding is that any other road is fair game and must be shared - as it should be. ALL our taxes pay for those roads, not just the cars.

Yea I understand that. My comment was more of spite towards CM.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

No worries then. CM can kiss my arse too. They're giving all of us a bad name. It's simply gang hooliganism masquerading as a cycling event... With the average knucklehead out there taking it out on the cycling community. They get no support from me.

[MikeSid]

The fact that at least half of them wear bandanas or scarves covering their faces indicates that this is not a bona fide protest.

With exceedingly few exceptions, if you have to hide your face to do it, it's not something that should be done.

These people are morons looking for a "cause" in an effort to hide their imbicility. Junior Varsity eco-terrorists.

[john70t]

Both incidents of violence towards the vehicle began after the driver drove into the cyclists/pedestrians and attempted to flee the scene of a crime.
What don't you neocons understand about the phrase "hit and run" and "citizens arrest"?.




(ok we'll forget about "disturbing the peace", "loitering" and "kidnapping" for the sake of argument.)