Large Hadron Collider

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

Don't get too excited Trek.

I don't have audio at work, so I'm not sure how much that video was MEANT to be comedy gold...


I gotta say...that's a damned impressive black hole the created there. Sucker musta been at least 5 solar masses!

[Jagshund]

The Mayan calendar doesn't say the world will end on 21 December 2012. It simply states that it's the end of a solar cycle . . . You guys keep your scientific mumbo-jumbo, I'll keep wearing my tinfoil cap. Regardless, we all gonna die.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/10mar_stormwarning.htm

[kang]

Originally Posted by 1968Cayman

The Mayan calendar doesn't say the world will end on 21 December 2012. It simply states that it's the end of a solar cycle . . .

I'm glad you cleared that up. I was worried....

[trekkor]

There's a show on the 'History Channel' about the LHC right now.


KT

[kstar]

Originally Posted by trekkor

There's a show on the 'History Channel' about the LHC right now.


KT

Well, I hope you're watching it.

The show offers some good stuff re the basis of science and fundamental "learning".

[trekkor]

Of course I'm watching it.

You?


KT

[trekkor]

They said they are searching for the truth of why things are the way they are.

"God Particle"... Classic.


KT

[dd74]

What am I supposed to glean from this thread? I understand both sides (I think). Trek believes an experiment to create a black hole is a fruitless endeavor. Others believe the opposite.

My question is: why would this experiment not be a waste of time? How will we know it is successful? What will we learn from it?

Fascinating stuff, btw. I don't understand two-thirds of what's being said here, but that's the fun of trying to follow, then figure out each person's post.

[kstar]

Here's some good summaries for you:
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/the-bosons-that.html

[trekkor]

Trek believes an experiment to create a black hole is a fruitless endeavor.

I don't know that they think they will create any black holes.
They don't seem to know what they are going to find.

They do say that if black holes are created they won't be dangerous.


How would they know that?


The other thing is that this is supposed to be the most powerful collider ever.
From the show, I heard they will accelerate the particles to 30kph less than the speed of light.
Is that correct?

So things could happen they could never anticipate, right? Maybe dangerous, right?


I hope all goes safely.


KT

[Tobra]

Don't mind frenchy, he is just bitter because he does not have any friends, imaginary or otherwise, and feels compelled to denigrate anyone he does not agree with, happens all the time with lonely folks.


I can't imagine any black hole being anything but dangerous.

They don't really know what will happen when they light that candle, but they do think they have a pretty good idea.

Wouldn't that be ironic if it created an electromagnetic pulse and fried the whole rig? Or made a little hole in the space/time continuum and France fell into it

[dd74]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

Here's some good summaries for you:
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/the-bosons-that.html

Whoa, dude! That's some crazy stuff. I mean, I think I get it. Here's what strikes me. This photo guys in hardhats, standing beside the accelerator:

Taking into account Trek's concern about safety, why are these guys wearing hardhats?

Also, are the things being smashed actual light? Because the only tangible I got from that article aside from digital cameras and 600 million flashes, was "...enough hydrogen to fill a fine grain of sand..." (sic), and I don't think they intend on smashing particles the size of sand grains - or do they?

In short, what's being smashed to form smaller, rarer particles? How large are the initial items being smashed? Will there be a sound from the "smash?" An explosion? What's the result of the smashing?

It's cool - I'll grant that. But Trek still has a point. You have to wonder what $10 billion and seventeen miles of pipe filled with 9,000 magnets can cause.

[dd74]

Well, it's 9:24 AM in Zurich right now. They should be lighting the candle sometime soon...

[svandamme]

something strange happening over here

NOOOOOOoooo...... we're all going to die!!!

[jeffgrant]

By the way, you can watch the world come to an end via streaming video, live, at:

http://webcast.cern.ch/index2.html

[Jim Richards]

Did the world come to an end? Did we all die? What the hell is happening???

[968rz]

They ran the tests which were a success they will start to smash real protons in a few weeks/months so were safe for awhile.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by dd74

Whoa, dude! That's some crazy stuff. I mean, I think I get it. Here's what strikes me. This photo guys in hardhats, standing beside the accelerator:

Taking into account Trek's concern about safety, why are these guys wearing hardhats?

Also, are the things being smashed actual light? Because the only tangible I got from that article aside from digital cameras and 600 million flashes, was "...enough hydrogen to fill a fine grain of sand..." (sic), and I don't think they intend on smashing particles the size of sand grains - or do they?

In short, what's being smashed to form smaller, rarer particles? How large are the initial items being smashed? Will there be a sound from the "smash?" An explosion? What's the result of the smashing?

It's cool - I'll grant that. But Trek still has a point. You have to wonder what $10 billion and seventeen miles of pipe filled with 9,000 magnets can cause.

Those guys are not standing there right now, I can guarantee that. That spot is a high radiation area right now.

I work at an accelerator facility. We do this every day. No EMPs, no other ill effects.

One of the best analogies I've read is that decades ago when we discovered the existence of electrons, no one had any idea what good could possibly come of that. We wasted all that money and all we discovered was electrons. Now look at how much of our lives are affected by the flow of those same electrons...

[IROC]

Just for fun, a couple of pictures of portions of our facility:

The "Front End" where the hydrogen ions are produced:



And a portion of the linac:

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by dd74

What am I supposed to glean from this thread? I understand both sides (I think). Trek believes an experiment to create a black hole is a fruitless endeavor. Others believe the opposite.

They are not trying to make black holes.

There is a zoo of elementary particles that are postulated to exist (or have existed). The Standard Model of subatomic physics gives approximate energy levels for each of these. Since Einstein showed us that mass and energy are equivalent, that means that if you can produce that much energy in a small area, there would be enough "mass" for the particle to form.

We're now to the point where they're searching for particles with such high energy, that they haven't existed in any appreciable amounts in the Universe since there was that much energy...the Big Bang, and possible in the core of some super-massive supernovae.

So, we make high energy accelerators, and slowly stumble across new, higher energy particles, hoping that (a) they exist on our zoological list and (b) are at a proper energy level. They're ticking off the shopping list. If they can get everything on the list, it was found where they expected it, and nothing different shows up, then the Standard Model would be pretty well verified.

Now, this seems like it would be easy to check, right? Maybe the Higgs bozon is postulated to have (make up numbers here) a weight of 40 pounds. Calculations show that you need a 20 mile circumference accelerator to get that energy. However, we only have a 17 mile unit. Basic atomic physics says that we will never see the Higgs.

However! Quantum Mechanics now steps in. It says that the energy/mass correlation can FLUCTUATE. You can give 35 pounds of accelerator energy, and it'll steal 5 pounds from the space-time fabric, and make that 40 pound Higg's bozon with your 17 mile accelerator...SOMETIMES. The more energy it needs to steal, the less likely it is, and the faster that particle disintegrates back into 35 pounds of energy and pays back the 5 pounds borrowed.

THAT is what they're looking for. They are hoping that the Higgs appears, for ever so short of a time, every millionth or billionth or trillionth collision. They hope that the probability catches up with them because of the volume of collisions they will do.

Now, the curse of this "borrowed" energy is that in an EXCEPTIONALLY small percentage of collisions, the energy borrowed will be so large that you exceed the mass requirements for a black hole in the center of that collision. It's postulated that this happened A LOT during the Big Bang...numerous uber-tiny black holes spawning out of the energy that existed then. Some might still exist, but many/most/all don't, according to Hawkings. His Hawking Radiation says that black holes slowly bleed energy back out into the Universe. Big ones (from stars) would take millions of times the age of the Universe to bleed out, but tiny ones are small enough that they might have evaporated already (over the past 15 billion years).

Take a breath...