Boeing machinists strike.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Can someone tell these idiots that you make hay while the sun is shining?

Did you not notice that's precisely what they are doing? First, the contract ended. That is part of the "timing" thing. Also, the union notices that Boeing has been making quite a bit of money and will probably make much more. $4B last year, I think.

I think it's about a toss-up whether 11% over 3 years will or will not keep up with inflation. With the price of fuel lately, my sense is that 11% is probably a good estimate of expected inflation over the next three years. If that is the case, then Boeing is offering its workers a 0% increase in real wages. And you guys think that is just SOOOO unfair to Boeing.

Highly skilled workers are needed to actually build airliners. Nobody (except perhaps some of you guys here.....I never know what you're going to confess to believing) disagrees with that. The real issue in these negotiations is outsourcing for the production of parts and components. That is a different issue, and a different group of workers, different skill level.

And finally......I've been arguing with other conservatives besides you guys and the issue of Americans and patriotism and pride and competition has come up there. Predictably, the conservatives are on the side of dooming America on the basis that Americans are not sufficiently bright, hard-working or creative. The assumption that American workers should take it in the shorts on wages in order to protect the competitive position of their benevolent employers........is the position that America is doomed to be victims of the 'global marketplace' because their productivity does not, and cannot, warrant their wage levels. We liberals do not share your low opinion of America and its workers. Boeing workers placed Boeing at the top of the international heap of airplane manufacturers. If Boeing thinks it can retain or recapture that position by replacing their American workers with folks in India, then Boeing will get what Boeing deserves.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Superman

blah blah blah

When Boeing dies/moves their jobs offshore they can find comfort in knowing they only wanted what was fair.

[Superman]

I'm disappointed. If I am correct about your position Len.....then you believe America's prosperity has peaked, and that we all need to accept a lower standard of affluence in the upcoming world economy. We will buy less cars, drive less miles, eat less expensive foods, buy less electronics, repair rather than replace shoes, etc. Because we are doomed. We are not sufficiently productive to warrant our high standard of living.

That's sad. And not particularly proud of, or optimistic about, your fellow Americans. Unpatriotic.

[Jeff Higgins]

In this company, one's work is never "done". When it is, there is already another (already late) project awaiting. I put in over 600 hours of overtime last year. This year will surpass that. Granted, my situation is different than most others'; the majority of that OT is when travelling on AOG and tech assist work. When on the road, we work 12 on, 12 off until we come home. Incidentally, this is purely by my choice. In my 28 years here, I have never been forced or coerced into working overtime. Granted, when we are busy (like we have been lately) it is pretty much understood that we will all pitch in and do our part. In the five years preceding the big upswing in commercial aviation in about the 2006-2007 time frame, I had not worked a minute of overtime. It comes and goes; such is the cyclic nature of our business.

As an aside, those whose inflated egos and self images allow them to convince themselves they can leave earlier than everyone else, because "their" work is "done", are little appreciated by the rest of the group. They usually have no idea what is really going on when they are given less to do than others, thus allowing them to leave early. The rest of us wind up picking the extra load they refuse to carry. They wind up leaving.

Mike, I'm not sure of your experiences at Boeing, but the company did get into some hot water years ago with undocumented/uncompensated overtime. Not with any of its unions, either, but with the good ol' Federal Gubmint. I can't remember the entire gist of it, but it had to do with cost accounting on military programs. As a result, it has been mandatory around here for well over a decade (probably more like 15 years or more) to report and record each and every stinking minute of overtime. That's for us, the professional workforce - it's always been that way for the hourly work force. That leads me to ask two questions: How long ago was this? Which location?

Anyway, back to the IAM. These guys do get saddled with "mandatory overtime". The rules are that they can work three weekends before they have to have one off. The can work up to 12 hour days. They can work up to something 160 hours a quarter before some other "special rules" kick in. And the company has been making them do just this for the last couple of years. Unlike me, they have no choice. Hell, when I get back from a trip, I can make myself pretty darn scarce around here for quite some time (and have). The IAM mechanics that travel with us report for work the next day, and are right back on their factory OT schedule. No break, no matter how long they have been gone.

Most of them have earned far more than their base yearly salaries already this year. They can afford to sit out for awhile. The most common complaint in their ranks is the sheer amount of OT expected; they need and want a break.

[Tim Hancock]

In the real world pay raises are not guaranteed. I nor any of the handful of employees that got re-hired by the new owners of the struggling company I work for, have gotten a raise of any kind in over two years. 11% over three years would be welcome by any of us. While once we had excellent health coverage, over the years we have had to start contributing more and more ourselves for crappier coverage.

I have ZERO pity for any union employees. That does not mean that I wish them all ill will, but again ZERO pity.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Superman

I'm disappointed. If I am correct about your position Len.....then you believe America's prosperity has peaked, and that we all need to accept a lower standard of affluence in the upcoming world economy. We will buy less cars, drive less miles, eat less expensive foods, buy less electronics, repair rather than replace shoes, etc. Because we are doomed. We are not sufficiently productive to warrant our high standard of living.

That's sad. And not particularly proud of, or optimistic about, your fellow Americans. Unpatriotic.

Certain groups are overpaid and have been for a long while. Simple machine operators are at the top of this list.

This does not translate to your other assumptions.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Mike, I'm not sure of your experiences at Boeing, but the company did get into some hot water years ago with undocumented/uncompensated overtime. Not with any of its unions, either, but with the good ol' Federal Gubmint. I can't remember the entire gist of it, but it had to do with cost accounting on military programs. As a result, it has been mandatory around here for well over a decade (probably more like 15 years or more) to report and record each and every stinking minute of overtime. That's for us, the professional workforce - it's always been that way for the hourly work force. That leads me to ask two questions: How long ago was this? Which location?

To answer your questions, this was less than a year ago and in Huntsville.

Yeah, I remember this stink, but it didn't affect me at the time and didn't affect me afterwards. We were explicitly told not to record any hours over 8 worked. Granted, I was probably McDonnell Douglas at the time. Heritage Boeing seemed to have different time charging practices. I actually seem to remember heritage Boeing people talking about something called "comp time" or "green time". No such thing with McDonnell Douglas (this was all Boeing-Huntsville, BTW). Heck, McDonnell Douglas forced us to work 44 hours a week years ago (but paid us for 40) so that they could effectively charge the government lower labor rates. That went on for over two years.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by IROC

To answer your questions, this was less than a year ago and in Huntsville.

Yeah, I remember this stink, but it didn't affect me at the time and didn't affect me afterwards. We were explicitly told not to record any hours over 8 worked. Granted, I was probably McDonnell Douglas at the time. Heritage Boeing seemed to have different time charging practices. I actually seem to remember heritage Boeing people talking about something called "comp time" or "green time". No such thing with McDonnell Douglas (this was all Boeing-Huntsville, BTW). Heck, McDonnell Douglas forced us to work 44 hours a week years ago (but paid us for 40) so that they could effectively charge the government lower labor rates. That went on for over two years.

That's kind of how I remembered it going down around here; your reply kind of cleared the cobwebs a bit. I think Boeing was under-bidding on its professional labor rates, and expecting us to work a percentage of overtime (unrecorded) to lower our actuals to their under-bid rate. They did get their pee pee slapped for that one, and hard, from what I remember. Not surprising Micky D's was still doing that at their "heritage" sites (don't you just love that term?) long after they bought Boeing (with Boeing's own money, but that's a story for another day...).

[Superman]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Certain groups are overpaid and have been for a long while. Simple machine operators are at the top of this list.

This does not translate to your other assumptions.

In my earlier post I drew the distinction between production work and the more highly skilled assembly work. The Boeing labor dispute involves both concepts.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

I have ZERO pity for any union employees. That does not mean that I wish them all ill will, but again ZERO pity.

I actually agree with this. As long as the workers are permitted to bargain collectively. In that instance, at least in theory, it's a fair fight. No need to feel sorry for either party.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Superman

In my earlier post I drew the distinction between production work and the more highly skilled assembly work. The Boeing labor dispute involves both concepts.

Having been in the machining industry for ~20 years I can assure you that most of the "skilled labor" out there is anything but. A small percentage of the machinists out there deserve 3x their current pay and the rest about half

Tim?

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

That's kind of how I remembered it going down around here; your reply kind of cleared the cobwebs a bit. I think Boeing was under-bidding on its professional labor rates, and expecting us to work a percentage of overtime (unrecorded) to lower our actuals to their under-bid rate. They did get their pee pee slapped for that one, and hard, from what I remember. Not surprising Micky D's was still doing that at their "heritage" sites (don't you just love that term?) long after they bought Boeing (with Boeing's own money, but that's a story for another day...).

Actually, we were doing the 44 hour work week thing prior to the merger (this was probably 1994-1996. It was only done at our site (in Huntsville). Our site management thought it would give us an edge in beating out an incumbent for a DoD contract, but knew that the government would not accept our "promise" of the proposed labor rate unless we were already working it, so they instituted the 44-hour work week in order to win the contract. We didn't win the contract, but management loved the idea that we were working an extra 10% for free, so it stayed. Harry Stonecipher was coming to our site and caught wind of the 44 hour work week and the ***** hit the fan - we went back to a 40 hour work week the next day. Evidently, no one above our site management knew anything about this.

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Superman

I actually agree with this. As long as the workers are permitted to bargain collectively. In that instance, at least in theory, it's a fair fight. No need to feel sorry for either party.

One thing I've never understood is why do union workers think they deserve "job security"? Everyone else in this world earns their job security through performance. Why do unions attempt get "job security" guaranteed as a contract issue?

[Jeff Higgins]

"International Association of Machinists" is somewhat of a misnomer. There are very few machinists per se in this union. The vast majority are mechanics. While there are some skilled machinists in the ranks, the majority of them are button-pushers in this day and age of CNC machining. There is some disparity between their placement on the labor grade scale and what they actually do, as a throwback to the days when all machinists really were machinists. Some button pushers make a lot of money...

There are some amazingly skilled mechanics in this company. They have as much invested in their training and careers as any other professional. The notion that the best they could do outside of a company like Boeing would be to work as a WalMart greeter only serves to display the depth of ignorance and prejudice held by anyone who would voice such an opinion. Yes, there are union jobs at that low skill level. They are paid commensurately to that skill level; they make little more (maybe even less) than some WalMart greeters. They barely make more than minimum wage. Take a look at the wage chart I posted.

The average wage in this union is about $24/hr. Some make substantially more, some make less than half of that. The skills required to perform a certain job do not always jive with the pay, as I mentioned above, but they do for the most part. Is that really an unreasonable wage for a skilled mechanic, working on arguably the most complex machines that mankind produces? Jeezus, there are mechanics at car dealerships that make more than that, with far more limited skills.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by IROC

One thing I've never understood is why do union workers think they deserve "job security"? Everyone else in this world earns their job security through performance. Why do unions attempt get "job security" guaranteed as a contract issue?

Many of our most sophisticated manufacturing processes have been developed by our union employees. Not our engineers. This may be unique to Boeing, but the real rub starts when those processes, that gave our union employees a competetive advantage in performing that particular work, are given free gratis along with that work to some one else. Some one who never could have, never would have, refined the manufacturing process to that level. They get the work because they can do it in the manner they are taught; in the manner developed by those whom the company has taken it away from.

We have been doing this long enough now to make some statements about how this works. Essentially, all further advancement on that particular part, process, or product simply stops when it has been off loaded in this manner. It is far different than when some one comes to Boeing with a better mousetrap that they have developed themselves; those tend to continue to improve and evolve. Our union guys have no qualms competing against such. They know they can keep up with, or beat, most places that come knocking with their wares. It's when their very own ideas are used against them - by offloading them to the lowest bidder - that they get their dander up. I can't blame them.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

While there are some skilled machinists in the ranks, the majority of them are button-pushers in this day and age of CNC machining. .

That's my point and the Unions classification system/pay scale program prevents the real rewarding of outstanding folks. It also kills the otherwise inherent drive within a person to stand out. It's a piss poor system all around.

Instead of their drive being fueled by accomplishment it becomes an exorcise in gaming the system with extra and often useless certifications and similar union negotiated "incentives".

[legion]

Jeff, these disparities exist because the unions do not like change and prefer to stick with antiquated job descriptions. If the shop was not union, the situation could be more fluid and pay/job descriptions could be continually adjusted to better match reality.

I've had my pay raised a few times just because I have skills that my company desires and they don't want me looking around for greener pastures. I've also had friends have their salaries stagnate (not cut) because their skills were no longer in demand.

At the machine shop my friend used to work at, the two most skilled and productive guys were two recent Polish immigrants. Management badly wanted to pay them more because they did the bulk of the work and did not want them to leave. Alas, the union tied their hands, and because they did not have "seniority", they could not be paid what they were worth. The did have the pleasure of overpaying an alcoholic who rarely showed up for work, and when he did it was just to "injure" himself so he could go back on disability. Alas, the union tied their hands, and because he had "seniority", they could not fire him nor pay him less (and they certainly tried). Of course, he had "job security", and in having a secured job, couldn't be bothered to do any actual work any longer.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Having been in the machining industry for ~20 years I can assure you that most of the "skilled labor" out there is anything but. A small percentage of the machinists out there deserve 3x their current pay and the rest about half

Tim?

Well I must admit here that my pure hatred for unions came from living near Detroit and the effing UAW. I don't care who you are or what you say, most UAW employees are overpaid and while some surely have skills, to be safe, I would not let any of them change a tire on my car.

I do not doubt that Boeing has some very skilled workers/craftsmen, but I detest to the core the idea of "organized labor", so no pity from me. Non-union companies and their employees do just fine in modern times. As time goes by and the world economy continues to evolve unions will eventually die off.... I say good riddance!!!

[Scuba Steve]

Originally Posted by Walter_Middie

From my desk, I can see about a dozen IAM picketers...

I think we're in the same building.

[David]

I work for a union machine shop where base pay for a mechanic/machinist is $31/hr, about $65k a year before OT and we're still having trouble hiring people.

If these guys are earning $65K with OT, they seem to me to have a legit complaint.