Concealed vs. Open Carry

[m21sniper]

In a lot of states you are allowed to protect anyone that needs protecting.

I am just not the stand around and watch crime unfold while doing nothing sort.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

In a lot of states you are allowed to protect anyone that needs protecting.

I am just not the stand around and watch crime unfold while doing nothing sort.

I'm not either. But I'd have to be 110% sure of what was happening before stepping in. If my wife were with me, she'd be the only thing I'd worry about. Everyone else would be on their own. If I was alone, I might be willing to take more of a risk for someone else. In AZ you're required to stop and assist a police officer if you see one involved in a struggle and you have a CCW.

[jyl]

I don't think we are talking about open carry in situations where it is pretty common and not unexpected - in the backcountry, on the ranch, maybe at a rodeo, etc. I have no issues with that, I would do it too.

I think we're talking about open carry in situations where it is not common - people walking into the local Starbucks, 7-11, bank, your local restaurant, your kids school, etc with a Glock openly displayed on their belt. "In town" situations, in other words.

Sorry, but creepy-looking guys openly carrying weapons "in town" make other people uncomfortable. They interfere with other people's ability to relax and enjoy their lives. (You don't look creepy? Well, maybe you do. Not all of us look like Jack Olsen.) Just like people who carry loud boomboxes, rant to invisible audiences, stink of BO, and otherwise make those around them uncomfortable.

And I'm not hearing a clear story about the benefit of carrying openly, other than making a statement and tweaking drivers with CA license plates. Is there some place where you're so afraid that you feel the need to openly display your weapon, or to be able to present that weapon faster than a IWB allows? Use common sense and don't go there.

With my CHL, I am permitted to carry openly in Oregon, even in Portland. I think it is a pointless and inconsiderate thing to do, "in town". My snubnose rides quietly in my jacket pocket, and if that's not enough, I'll turn around and go somewhere else.

Again, no problem with carrying openly in the field. That's perfectly appropriate in my book.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Yeah, but instead of the hammer loaded is the guy swinging it?

We live in dangerous times...

The reality is I have no interest in stopping crime - that isn't my job, nor am I covered under the law to do so. "Good samaritan" laws are pretty thin most of the time. The only reason to pull a weapon is if you think you or your family is in imminent danger and has no other alternative. Anything short of that will likely get you jail time, and rightly so imho.

"And rightly so imho"???? Really?

I find it sad that we have been intimidated into being afraid to help one another should we witness a crime in action. Particularly if someone is getting hurt. It absolutely turns my stomach every time I read a story, or see a news report, of someone who gets needlessly hurt because bystanders "don't want to get involved". We are all in this together. It's usually not very hard at all to tell the good guys from the bad guys.

The authorities would like us all to believe it is their job to protect us. The courts have actually ruled otherwise, time and time again, ruling that the police have a "general responsibility" but no specific, individual responsibility if someone falls victim to a crime. Imagine how that one could go, in this lawsuit happy U.S. of A... but I digress. It's the authorities' way of saying they cannot possibly protect us at the critical moment.

Let me ask a couple questions related to DARISC's - how many instances of police officers being at exactly the right place, at exactly the right time to foil a perp in action can anyone show us? Assault, armed robbery, burgalry, whatever. How does that number stack up, when expressed as a percentage of the times they were not at the right place at the right time? Just a hunch, but I bet the number of crimes they stop while actually being committed are statistically insignificant. Even when called to a crime scene. As the sayings go, "when seconds count, they are only minutes away" and "Call a cop; order a pizza - see which one gets there first".

[nostatic]

Story told to me yesterday in CCW class. Off-duty cop come up to liquor store, sees a guy with a gun holding up the place. Starts to pull weapon and then someone comes running up - was a movie shoot and they didn't have security as good as they should have.

In many situations it can be hard to tell who the good guy and bad guy is. Do you want a wrong choice on your conscience? If I have been "in the situation" the whole time I know the story. If I come upon a situation I might not.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I'm not either. But I'd have to be 110% sure of what was happening before stepping in. If my wife were with me, she'd be the only thing I'd worry about. Everyone else would be on their own. If I was alone, I might be willing to take more of a risk for someone else. In AZ you're required to stop and assist a police officer if you see one involved in a struggle and you have a CCW.

I feel the same way. My CHL doesn't make me a hero-in-waiting.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Story told to me yesterday in CCW class.

??? CCW class ??? Does this mean you are getting one, in Los Angeles?

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by jyl

??? CCW class ??? Does this mean you are getting one, in Los Angeles?

No, Utah permit. Because I can...plus more training is rarely a bad thing.

[charleskieffner]

[QUOTE=m21sniper;4576986]3 times for me so far.

Once i caught a fleeing scumbag on foot(illegal, no license or insurance) after he hit and ran a lady and her kid in their car. He hit her so hard his inertia switch triggered and his car stalled, so he was forced to try and run on foot. This was a major accident and serious injuries were involved.
I was just a little faster. Mr. 9mm convinced him to follow me back to the accident scene with no fuss or muss. Last i saw him he was wearing shiny silver bracelets and going for a ride in the pretty car with the flashing blue and red lights.

I just recently caught a different hit and run guy that tried to flee when he hit the car in front of mine and my partner's saab. I didn't require a pistol for that one, though my partner did end up pepper spraying the COMPLETELY HAMMERED DRUNK guy.

Another time i caught 3 young guys trying to break into the bar under my apartmet. My white german shepard and mr. 12 gauge pump convinced them to stop that chit right away.

Finally, i was in my car and the guy behind me was in full road rage mode for some perceived offense. At was at the tail end of rush hour, maybe 7:00pm.

After he followed me trying to cut me off and panic brake in front of me several times i just pulled onto a commercial street(no witnesses or innocents) and stopped my car.
Sure enough, he pulled up right behind me and tapped my bumper, and gets out all in a rage.


OUTFREEKING STANDING!

you know anyone who wants to get in a shootout in my book is a freeking lunatic in his own right. im not dumb and im not stoopid......bullets hurt........ALOT!

butttt..........on the other side of the coin i have been shooting wayyyy longer than most here and at a preeeetty high level over the years. without hesatation in the event of being in the REALLY WRONG PLACE AT THE REALLY WRONG TIME i will be coming from concealed and firing before any of you can spit! and not think twice if put in that position. there is no time to think. your training takes over and thats that!. any scumbag that puts anyone around me in that position, i will draw down and fire if i have a clear shot.

and thats exactly what i did last summer up on clear creek outside of camp verde when the idiot mofo POS started sending tree branches and leaves falling on our heads shooting at us! had i had a clear shot after yelling at him as well as about 50 other people, TO CEASE FIRE and he then reloaded after all of us yelling and proceeded to fire some more, the only freeking reason that POS MOFO POS is still on this planet is because i didnt have a clear shot! and that was witnessed by at least 50 people including my g/friend, uncle bill from patricks his wife his kids his dog!

when this clown continued shooting after everyone yelling, i was angling around my truck,round in pipe,safety off,finger on trigger, using truck for cover looking for the clear shot to cease the threat. no ifs and or butts, if i had the clear shot he WAS DEAD! all my years of training took over and it was him or me. and believe me it was NOT GONNA BE ME!

when it was all said and done with the cops and the usfs ranger danger quite a few sheeple came up to me and thanked me for my actions. no b.s. no embellishment. me.........i was scared poo-less. it took a hell of alot of beers that night to put my adrenaline down to a acceptable level.

i didnt want to be in that position, i didnt ask for that situation, i wouldnt wish that upon anyone. until you have been shot at dont even try and tell me what you would or wouldnt do. all i know is since i have been shooting ALOT and hunting ALOT and shooting matches ALOT since i was 6 years old with about every kind of weapon there is, i think i kind of know something about the subject. writing about this experience right now has my blood pressure up. this clown could have killed quite a few people because of his stupidity. as i said if i had a clear shot on his worthless ass there would be one less idiot mofo on this planet. i have always been trained to only take the shot when it is clear. i think i handled myself with more restraint than 99.99999999999999999% of most people. in hindsight i may have hit him emptying my clip thru the trees and reloading,emptying clip, thru the tree branches, but i also may have hit someone else. and that thought does keep rolling over in my mind. and if someone by us had been hit and i didnt take the shot because it wasnt clear, should i have taken the shot when it wasnt clear to cease the threat?????

after that camping trip i will never go again without superior overwhelming massive firepower! screw a .45!

not fun by any stretch. will never forget it it ever!

by the way last sunday i shot 15th out of 52 people attending. i was ranked 6 places above my 20 year old son whose a damn good shot in his own right. i havent shot a match in years............YEARS! the 14 people ahead of me on the roster shoot every 4th sunday. they are wayy older than me. they shoot alot. like their retired and SHOOT ALOT! they live within 20 minutes of the range.......they SHOOT ALOT!

i felt pretty damn good about that. the last time i shot a match i didnt need glasses. getting old sucks when it comes to eyesight. i used to have BEYOND PERFECT VISION, like the bottom row of the eye chart was simple. those were the days. i hate glasses when it comes to shooting. i had my glasses on up in clear creek, if i had seen him i would have shot him. no 2 ways about it! it wasnt fun and i will never go thru that again if i can help it in anyway!

as for paco de muy loco cabeza, he got reckless endangerment, firing a weapon within usfs campgrounds, and a few other nice firearms offenses that preclude his worthless ass from ever possessing a firearm again in his life! thank you usfs ranger dangers and yavapai county sheriffs office.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Story told to me yesterday in CCW class. Off-duty cop come up to liquor store, sees a guy with a gun holding up the place. Starts to pull weapon and then someone comes running up - was a movie shoot and they didn't have security as good as they should have.

In many situations it can be hard to tell who the good guy and bad guy is. Do you want a wrong choice on your conscience? If I have been "in the situation" the whole time I know the story. If I come upon a situation I might not.

That's a one in a million scenario, even in Hollywood. Not likely to happen in the real world. I'm more worried about getting struck by lightening twice in the same day.

[Superman]

Granted this was something like 25 years ago but when my sister was moving out of Lyman Wyoming, the big controversy there was a city ordinance (Lyman or Rock Springs) that would have required guys to check their side arms with the bartender while drinking in the bar. This was a very controversial proposed ordinance. Lots of guys were pretty offended and alarmed that someone would suggest such a thing.

[Jeff Higgins]

I don't think any of us are just itching for the opportunity (despite folks like DARISC's characterizations) to "use" our CCW's. I admit I would be scared motherless if it every really came to that. I also think that good judgement and caution would certainly prevail. It would be the most serious thing any of us have ever done... None of us would take it lightly. I have to think that when the situation warrents, it will be very painfully obvious. It usually is, if you read accounts from those who have had to do this.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

And open carried at Long John Silver last week during their dinner rush. No one said a word about it.

Who's going to say something to a guy packin' heat?!?

Not me!

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

be on their own. If I was alone, I might be willing to take more of a risk for someone else. In AZ you're required to stop and assist a police officer if you see one involved in a struggle and you have a CCW.

I would do that anyway.

One night when me and my repo partner were in N.Philly we saw a couple cops BATTLING it out with some giant african dude.

We stopped and helped. I could barely walk for 3 days afterwards. LOL.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jyl

I don't think we are talking about open carry in situations where it is pretty common and not unexpected - in the backcountry, on the ranch, maybe at a rodeo, etc. I have no issues with that, I would do it too.

I think we're talking about open carry in situations where it is not common - people walking into the local Starbucks, 7-11, bank, your local restaurant, your kids school, etc with a Glock openly displayed on their belt. "In town" situations, in other words.

Sorry, but creepy-looking guys openly carrying weapons "in town" make other people uncomfortable. They interfere with other people's ability to relax and enjoy their lives. (You don't look creepy? Well, maybe you do. Not all of us look like Jack Olsen.) Just like people who carry loud boomboxes, rant to invisible audiences, stink of BO, and otherwise make those around them uncomfortable.

And I'm not hearing a clear story about the benefit of carrying openly, other than making a statement and tweaking drivers with CA license plates. Is there some place where you're so afraid that you feel the need to openly display your weapon, or to be able to present that weapon faster than a IWB allows? Use common sense and don't go there.

With my CHL, I am permitted to carry openly in Oregon, even in Portland. I think it is a pointless and inconsiderate thing to do, "in town". My snubnose rides quietly in my jacket pocket, and if that's not enough, I'll turn around and go somewhere else.

Again, no problem with carrying openly in the field. That's perfectly appropriate in my book.

I agree with this post almost entirely.

Open carry is just not for me.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Story told to me yesterday in CCW class. Off-duty cop come up to liquor store, sees a guy with a gun holding up the place. Starts to pull weapon and then someone comes running up - was a movie shoot and they didn't have security as good as they should have.

In many situations it can be hard to tell who the good guy and bad guy is. Do you want a wrong choice on your conscience? If I have been "in the situation" the whole time I know the story. If I come upon a situation I might not.

No one is shooting any movies here, and if they do and they're so stupid they don't make sure it's apparent what they're doing, whatever happens is their fault.

Keifer Sutherland actually intervened in a film being shot once when he saw 2 guys beating the spit out of an old person.

Turns out it was being staged for the camera, but he still stopped and played Jack Bauer for real.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

No one is shooting any movies here, and if they do and they're so stupid they don't make sure it's apparent what they're doing, whatever happens is their fault.

Keifer Sutherland actually intervened in a film being shot once when he saw 2 guys beating the spit out of an old person.

Turns out it was being staged for the camera, but he still stopped and played Jack Bauer for real.

A friend of mine worked as makeup artist for the thing the Sutherland broke up. They were shooting a "mugging" on the street and he pulled over and saved the day.

In LA it is quite common to stumble onto something being filmed. For large productions it is quite obvious due to the amount of surrounding infrastructure. But for indie or run-and-gun production, it can be just actors and maybe a crew of 1-4 people. If the camera is out of sight...

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

In Arizona open carry is legal and a pretty common sight. I do it regularly on my bike, as wearing full riding gear makes it difficult to draw from concealment. I also like offending drivers with California plates when I pass them and let them see my right hip.

Rick,

You sure wouldn't offend me, but you sure know how to make a guy jealous and just feel bad.

[on2wheels52]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Business owners can openly carry, and that makes sense for some cash heavy businesses like pawn shops....

There was me 25 years ago. I soon decided concealed carry was more my style, even though AR had no statute in effect then. I decided the typical perp would figure out that someone working in a place with several hundred guns would probably have a working knowledge of firearms and might possibly have a loaded one nearby and thus would take that into consideration prior to any confrontation.
Jim

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Dottore

I'd love to hear from one of you gun-toting righteous citizens who have actually foiled a dastardly crime by being in the right place at the right time with your concealed cannon.

When I first moved to Tejas, maybe 2 weeks after I got there, they had this old hick on the TV news who capped a car jacker with his .357. He witnessed the car jacking, figured the lady was not talking about her BMW when she was crying about "her baby." He went and got his pistol from under the seat of his truck and shot the criminal in the head as he rolled by, baby in the back seat. When the reporter asked if he was worried about hitting the kid, he gets the funniest look on his face, the are you stupid or something look, and replies, "The kid was in the back seat"

An airweight S&W .38 is pretty damn compact, palm of your hand