think GM has problems now?

[dd74]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

"I have a variety of chinese built products. Most of them are poorly built pieces of crap. "

Who makes your electronic toys and appliances (i.e. computers, iPods, cell phones, TVs, etc.)? Emerson, Sylvania, Motorola, Packard Bell? Nope. Got a Dell computer? How do you say, "thank you" in Mandarin?

Sherwood

Most of which I've had; most of which fell apart/malfunctioned/became worthless.

How do you say, "crap" in Mandarin?

[911pcars]

If your made-in-China Sony monitor craps out, why blame China? They just manufacture to the specs provided by Sony. Why do people complain about the quality of a $4 polo shirt they purchased at Walmart? Walmart sets the prices for the items they purchase. If you can't make a polo shirt for $1, you can say sayonara to a Walmart clothing contract. That $1 shirt, btw, has <$1 worth of material and labor in it.

People would be surprised by the number of products produced in China, some cheap, some excellent. It depends on the specs.

The cheap crap broke because you purchased a cheap, crap product. Next time, spend a little more for quality.

Sherwood

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by speedracing944

How is hydrogen produced?
Coal burning power plants producing electricity for the electrolysis of water to use as fuel in a car.

Now cut out the middle...
Coal burning power plants producing electricity for fuel in a car.

Speedy

Actually, in Coal Gasification, you produce hydrogen from coal directly, using steam. In fact, this used to be "City Gas". Gas in homes used to be this type of coal created gas. The gas is a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide. And this is where the suicide from sticking your head in the oven came from.

I think sometime in the 20's, most converted to methane, aka "Natural" gas. Funny how the head in the oven suicide method continued to be use, at least in the movies.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

If your made-in-China Sony monitor craps out, why blame China? They just manufacture to the specs provided by Sony. Why do people complain about the quality of a $4 polo shirt they purchased at Walmart? Walmart sets the prices for the items they purchase. If you can't make a polo shirt for $1, you can say sayonara to a Walmart clothing contract. That $1 shirt, btw, has <$1 worth of material and labor in it.

People would be surprised by the number of products produced in China, some cheap, some excellent. It depends on the specs.

The cheap crap broke because you purchased a cheap, crap product. Next time, spend a little more for quality.

Sherwood

So, are what you listed two posts earlier examples of so-called "excellent" products from China? Well, they weren't "excellent" as I've had a few of those products, and they fell apart.

Specs followed closely vs. specs w/corners cut or just a general lack of quality control is how I sum up any Chinese manufacturing effort - which is always taken with a grain of salt. I find I do not do this with German products, Italian, American or even Japanese products. But Chinese products, yep: I don't trust them. So sure, you get what you pay for. Knowing this the gamble of it crapping out during ownership is something I wholly expect if I've no choice but buy Chinese.

Of course, China has other issues too: lead paint on children toys, poisonous dog food, tainted toothpaste -- it's all listed somewhere on the internet.

"Don't blame China?"

When the driver's door falls off my Chinese electric car, or the top tube cracks from the head tube on my Chinese-welded bike frame, who else am I to blame?

I don't abuse or neglect my purchases, so how can I blame anyone other than the manufacturer and who the manufacturer chooses to assemble their products?

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by dd74

So, are what you listed two posts earlier examples of so-called "excellent" products from China? Well, they weren't "excellent" as I've had a few of those products, and they fell apart.

Specs followed closely vs. specs w/corners cut or just a general lack of quality control is how I sum up any Chinese manufacturing effort - which is always taken with a grain of salt. I find I do not do this with German products, Italian, American or even Japanese products. But Chinese products, yep: I don't trust them. So sure, you get what you pay for. Knowing this the gamble of it crapping out during ownership is something I wholly expect if I've no choice but buy Chinese.

Of course, China has other issues too: lead paint on children toys, poisonous dog food, tainted toothpaste -- it's all listed somewhere on the internet.

"Don't blame China?"

When the driver's door falls off my Chinese electric car, or the top tube cracks from the head tube on my Chinese-welded bike frame, who else am I to blame?

I don't abuse or neglect my purchases, so how can I blame anyone other than the manufacturer and who the manufacturer chooses to assemble their products?

Are you referring to Sony and Walmart as the excellent companies I suggested? Nope. I just mentioned products they offer under their manufacturing control (or lack thereof). Obviously, in the case of Walmart, they're more conscious of price than quality, so if they can find a low bidder in the Congo, they'll use them. In the case of other consumer products, if price point is the determining factor, then something's gotta give.

If a company doesn't want to oversee production on a product manufactured overseas, especially low-priced products, then they take their chances. As a consumer, it's caveat emptor for low-priced products. Should consumers expect the highest quality for the lowest cost? Uh, no.

Sherwood

[tabs]

Did you evr consider economy of scale as a function of those goods with short shelf lives? That to keep growing a economy, one has to keep increasing sales. Since a product sold satisifys a need, one has to shoreten the life span of the product to keep the demand up. Thus we have a disposable goods economy.

[tabs]

To put quality into a product one has to incur cost. Durable goods exist but are costly, more costly then the average consumer is willing to pay. Craftsmanship costs.

Take for exampe a handbuilt shotgun from Purdy in the UK...one puts their name on a waiting list and pays roughly 40K for their built shotgun. when for $1500 one can get an Italian or Japanese look alike

[dd74]

Originally Posted by tabs

Did you evr consider economy of scale as a function of those goods with short shelf lives? That to keep growing a economy, one has to keep increasing sales. Since a product sold satisifys a need, one has to shoreten the life span of the product to keep the demand up. Thus we have a disposable goods economy.

Isn't that also called planned obsolescence? Wasn't that something Henry Ford incorporated into the engineering of his cars?

[dd74]

Originally Posted by tabs

To put quality into a product one has to incur cost. Durable goods exist but are costly, more costly then the average consumer is willing to pay. Craftsmanship costs.

Take for exampe a handbuilt shotgun from Purdy in the UK...one puts their name on a waiting list and pays roughly 40K for their built shotgun. when for $1500 one can get an Italian or Japanese look alike

Yes. You know guns, I know road bikes. It's the same principle.

You can buy a road bike built in China which will be perfectly fine until that last good sprint and (pow!). Would that happen with a good Italian or American bike - yes - but not as likely. Why? Quality control. That's really all it is. Bikes are simple. How they are assembled is really an art in itself -- and a liability.

If China could guarantee quality control in bicycles as Taiwan has done for almost 20 yrs now - where, incidentally, some of the best mass-produced bicycles in the world are made - then I wouldn't have a problem with Chinese bikes (also if there existed no American, Italian or German bicycles to choose from). But until then, no way!

[tabs]

Originally Posted by dd74

Isn't that also called planned obsolescence? Wasn't that something Henry Ford incorporated into the engineering of his cars?

Planned Obsolescence really started in the 50's after Henry the first was gone. The old boys of the 19th century were always trying to build a better and longer lasting product. Remember the days when it took a Ball Peen hammer to put a dent in a car body? It was the changing of car bodies in the 50's that really set into motion PO, because by the 50's most of the realibilty issues in autos had been worked out, and they needed to provide a reason for you to change your car every year or two. .

[rhjames]

Originally Posted by 1967 R50/2

Warren Buffett owns 10% of BYD , and he rarely makes mistakes.

that's why he (B/H) lost over 40% of it's value with the financial meltdown.........just like everyone else.


a huge mistake and he knew i was coming.

[911pcars]

Yes. You know guns, I know road bikes. It's the same principle.

You can buy a road bike built in China which will be perfectly fine until that last good sprint and (pow!). Would that happen with a good Italian or American bike - yes - but not as likely. Why? Quality control. That's really all it is. Bikes are simple. How they are assembled is really an art in itself -- and a liability.

If China could guarantee quality control in bicycles as Taiwan has done for almost 20 yrs now - where, incidentally, some of the best mass-produced bicycles in the world are made - then I wouldn't have a problem with Chinese bikes (also if there existed no American, Italian or German bicycles to choose from). But until then, no way!

In regards to bicycle manufacturing, you might be interested to read this article.

http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328

... and this excerpt:
"Generally speaking, low to mid level bikes are made in China and mid to high level bikes are made in Taiwan. The exception is carbon; many manufacturers use Chinese manufacturers to make their carbon frames – even their high-end racing frames."

So much for the perception of "inferior" frames made in China.

Other consumer products, like automobile manufacturing, have a similar pattern of outsourcing.

Sherwood