I'm not getting along with the 30 somethings.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by milt

Actually, you're right on this. Being somewhat accomplished at what I do and having a decent education, command of the language and a high IQ, I'm sure I come off as somewhat condescending. The typical homeowner is condescending to the trades. Bad mix.

Hey, I've had a good run. I've sold well over 2 million dollars worth of windows and doors installing every one myself. I'd say that my sales methods were good enough over the years. Before windows I did general contracting and before that, painting. All in all, I've been working for Mr. and Mrs. Homeowner for a lot of years. They have changed more than I.

As I said, you guys have nailed it. The younger homeowners are by and large not up to speed. When I see some jerkoff selling a job that he does not intend to do right for whatever reason, AND HE SELLS THAT JOB, I think well, they deserve what they get.

I thank you all again for telling me what I needed to hear. It makes me feel a bit better as I get ready to pack up the tools and move on. Oh, I'll still hang a door now and then just to keep fresh. And just to prove that there is someone who knows how to do that with a perfect margin on the sides and top. It's a lost art and no one cares that it got lost.

Don't forget the 2 1/2 degree bevel on the strike side. I am younger and grew up wanting to do this stuff, finish carpentry, cabinets, or just build in gerenal at age 14. I knew what i wanted. I pretty much taught myself how to do this stuff. I have no formal training other then some high school shop classed. College got in the way for a good few years. There are a good few, very few, young guys that I know who cares and are very detail. I train 2 of them and now are still on my payroll after 10+ years. I teach for a few hours just to know that the lost arts are beign pass down to get young people exicted. good luck to you.

Jeff

[look 171]

Originally Posted by fintstone

No it doesn't. If you don't need the work...cut out half your potential customers. Just don't be one of those that whine about not getting enough work. I have no problem not paying my money to people who cannot do business by email when it is the only method I have available. My employer expects to be able to contact me 24 hrs per day if necessary...and expects me to show up 30 minutes later ready to go to whatever God-forsaken place they want me to go to. They expect me to regularly work 12 hrs per day or more under often poor conditions. I have no problem asking people I employ to simply communicate via email. If they choose not to make themself available, then they can find their work elsewhere. There are people that actually want to work that will do the job.

there is a time and place for everything. I guess its ok for you to call me at 11:30pm to find out why your interior didn't not get delivery as plan. How do I answer your email if I am out on the field? I refuse to call my subs or my employees 24/7. That's not cool. If you could call me late, then how would you like it if I call you at 10:30pm and ask for a payment and be there in an hour to pick it up. Yes it works both ways. It call respect and it is earned.

[rnln]

Milt, if you think everyone is appreciate your Porsche quality work then you missed one thing. Someone only need Kia quality for more different reasons; therfore they only want to pay Kia price. Don't you think many people think they won't keep the house for long? Why not try to give people 2 options, Porsche and Kia quality/price and let them choose.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Huh.

Well, as a thirty something, I'll play.

How about this? We are not interested in your 38 years worth of war stories or your personal charm. Show us a presentation about what work you have done, provide excellent graphics, be able to discuss what we are seeing in depth. My generation is not into 'folksy'. We are into 'Powerpoint'. We want information in a format we can quantify. We want incentives.

Were demanding SOBs. Sorry.

Wow HardDrive,

You are demanding. Been there done that got the t-shirt. I have seen more folks caught up in the appearance of knowledge, i.e. Powerpoint etc. than the execution of the project. Putting together a powerpoint on so many of these things is marketing, sometimes the data that is now called "metrics" means nothing or costs more than the work itself.

The reason why we see so much upfront costs, which customers do not want to pay for is because of data overdose and paralysis by analysis. It is stupid. This is the old adage of focusing on the hammer when driving nails is the objective, that is what gets the work done.

Now I understand how this came about, but it is still stupid, it drives up the cost and if a person expects powerpoint fine, but doing that crap is what doesn't allow for folksy or human interaction. And if you want all of that overhead crap, be willing to pay for it.

[berettafan]

We can probably all agree that an aprenticeship model would be much better than the current 'pays your money and gets your license' system.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by rnln

Milt, if you think everyone is appreciate your Porsche quality work then you missed one thing. Someone only need Kia quality for more different reasons; therfore they only want to pay Kia price. Don't you think many people think they won't keep the house for long? Why not try to give people 2 options, Porsche and Kia quality/price and let them choose.

I worked in the professional photo industry for many years. The revolution in digital photography brought in people that were happy with "good enough" pictures. It is the same problem with many business models, is it "good enough to pass" is the often only question. I call it the Wal Mart mentality, low price is usually the biggest driving force.

I just wish there was a secret handshake or greeting that distinguished those of us that are not motivated by price alone.

[javadog]

[QUOTE=fintstone;4638092]

I assume the phone call remark referred to me.

Yep. But I also got this notion from others, too.

If you could find time to think about it, there is a big difference between not being some who "cannot" make a call during the day and someone that chooses not to. Seems pretty clear to me. Why would it even cross your mind to make assumptions about someone else's employment or life?

Well, then you should have said that, rather than "I cannot make calls during the day." But this brings up another point, which is this: if you feel like you don't have the time to make phone calls during the day, how is it you feel that you have time to waste on things like this thread? You make choices as to how you spend your time. If something is important to me, I make time for it. I don't ask other people to make allowances for me. I value and respect their time just as much as I do my own. I have found that communicating face to face is essential and a phone call runs a distant second. Email and texting are even in the same league, although email has other uses.

Something I am hearing from people in this thread, and I am not specifically speaking of you here, is that there seems to be a condescending tone in a lot of the remarks. It seems that some people think that a person who works with their hands in construction is just that little bit beneath them. Others seem to act as if the world revolved around them. I find both of these attitudes distasteful.

If I were to give advice to someone looking to get some work done, it would include meeting the prospective contractor at least once. Judgements about the character of another person are better done in person. It's nearly impossible to do that over an email exchange. I'd also think it highly important to go over the scope of the job in person, at the site. Otherwise, sooner or later you will have a job that does not turn out the way you intended. If you choose to do otherwise, that is your business. I assume you know the possible outcomes.

Perhaps you have a very unusal job. What do you do, if I may ask?

JR

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by look 171

there is a time and place for everything. I guess its ok for you to call me at 11:30pm to find out why your interior didn't not get delivery as plan. How do I answer your email if I am out on the field? I refuse to call my subs or my employees 24/7. That's not cool. If you could call me late, then how would you like it if I call you at 10:30pm and ask for a payment and be there in an hour to pick it up. Yes it works both ways. It call respect and it is earned.

I would not call you at all. If you are not ok with using email...you simply would not get the work. If someone is doing a project for me and cannot send an email when he needs something...or check his email every day or so...they are far too high and mighty for me to deal with anyway. It is up to you how you deal with your subs or employees...but many of us in the don't have the luxury that you apparently do...to get to set all the conditions of you employement. As far as when you are "in the field"...I don't know what that means (In the jungle somewhere where there is no communications or internet?)...because you make it appear that you are home every night and cannot be disturbed enough to check to see if the person paying you might have emailed you. In this day and age, that is simply part of the business day for mot people. If you mean at a job site, my last contractor carried a phone that allowed him to send emails and photos of the ongoing work...since he was 3000 miles away and could not call me. I checked my email every night and answered any needs he had from me (more money, project direction, etc). He had no problem working under those conditions. It may have well extended the project a bit...but it lkely increased his bank account as well. In fact he has not worked for me in a year, but he emailed me last night and I read it about midnight. If I needed help on a project, I know he woud find a way to help me out.

As far as payment, This is not 1940. I paid my contractor up front. When funds dropped below a certain level he sent me an email...and I wired the funds to his account the next day...so he never had to wait more than 2 days. If he cannot plan his expenses two days in advance, it is not my problem and he likely shouldn't be in business anyways.

Obviously you do not want my business if you are not willing to do something as simple as make yourself flexible enough to be contacted in some way outside of 9 to 5 like the rest of the world. Get a clue...It is not personal (although a know-it-all contractor would not get my money either) or a popularity contest. It is no different than a guy who works the night shift and gets off at midnight. If your "mom and pop" restraurant is closed...you don't get the business. No matter how much the guy prefers your menu. If Wayne at Pelican did not have a website where I could order parts at night and on weekends...then I simply could not buy his parts...I would have to order them elsewhere. If I cannot call you and you will not do business via the internet, then we simply cannot do business.

[fintstone]

[QUOTE=javadog;4638332]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Yep. But I also got this notion from others, too.



Well, then you should have said that, rather than "I cannot make calls during the day." But this brings up another point, which is this: if you feel like you don't have the time to make phone calls during the day, how is it you feel that you have time to waste on things like this thread? You make choices as to how you spend your time. If something is important to me, I make time for it. I don't ask other people to make allowances for me. I value and respect their time just as much as I do my own. I have found that communicating face to face is essential and a phone call runs a distant second. Email and texting are even in the same league, although email has other uses.

Something I am hearing from people in this thread, and I am not specifically speaking of you here, is that there seems to be a condescending tone in a lot of the remarks. It seems that some people think that a person who works with their hands in construction is just that little bit beneath them. Others seem to act as if the world revolved around them. I find both of these attitudes distasteful.

If I were to give advice to someone looking to get some work done, it would include meeting the prospective contractor at least once. Judgements about the character of another person are better done in person. It's nearly impossible to do that over an email exchange. I'd also think it highly important to go over the scope of the job in person, at the site. Otherwise, sooner or later you will have a job that does not turn out the way you intended. If you choose to do otherwise, that is your business. I assume you know the possible outcomes.

Perhaps you have a very unusal job. What do you do, if I may ask?

JR

What part of "cannot" didn't you understand? I work in an isolated government facility. I go there early in the morning and come back late at night. I cannot use a cell phone or any personal communication device there. Most places I go or work do not allow this due to security...others are simply "off the grid." When I am not there...I am on military reserve duty in similar or worse places (without a phone) keeping guys like you safe at home in your cushy jobs where you cannot be bothered to contact me in any way except what is easiest for you.

My last bulding project (remodel) lasted a year. I did not meet the fellow in person until after the job was completed. He did a great job.

[jyl]

Fint's situation is unusual. But many people who aren't in his situation, nonetheless prefer not to use the telephone nowadays. Like it or not, vendors should adapt to that change in customer preferences.

Nothing hard about it. Contractors can simply carry Blackberries or other smartphones, and thus send/receive email, photos, etc from the field.

Personally, I no longer answer my work telephone and only family, personal friends, and <5 business contacts have my cellphone number. Every day, 30+ vmail messages pile up on the work phone, and once a week I go in and skim/delete them. Brokers, analysts, vendors etc contact me via email, which I read and reply to promptly. For more urgent matters, there is IM.

[javadog]

[QUOTE=fintstone;4638350]

Originally Posted by javadog

What part of "cannot" didn't you understand?

Well, first you said you can't make calls. Then you said what you really meant was that you choose not to make calls. Now you are saying you really CAN'T make calls.

I get it. You have an unusual job. We'll make an exception for you.

I am going to bow out of this little thread, as it is getting ridiculous. Back to the original point, I understand Milt's frustration and I think you'll find the root cause of it will be one of the things that seals the fate of the US as an economically healthy country.

And, one of these days you'll all wake up and find there are no craftsmen left, at which point you'll wish for the days when you could have something nice, that would last you a lifetime.

Cheers, and thanks for the service to this country,
JR

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by look 171

I am one of those guys they pay more to do the job, because we always get it done, on time, on budget and with a smile always, and my clients know it.


Jeff

I've heard about guys like you. ;-)

Pretty hard to find in these parts.

[rnln]

Each p erson has his/her own mind set and choices. To me, I think there are different need of qualites for different purposes. I agree that low quality and low price is the strongest business nowadays. So if you can, why not have both

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I worked in the professional photo industry for many years. The revolution in digital photography brought in people that were happy with "good enough" pictures. It is the same problem with many business models, is it "good enough to pass" is the often only question. I call it the Wal Mart mentality, low price is usually the biggest driving force.

I just wish there was a secret handshake or greeting that distinguished those of us that are not motivated by price alone.

[nostatic]

I don't refuse to use the phone, but I avoid it and will in fact often insist on email instead. The reason being that email provides a "paper trail". I've had too many misunderstandings based on half-remembered telecons. I had one sub who always tries to talk to me on the phone. I always email him back. I would talk on the phone to him occasionally, but he wanted to make that the primary means of communication. I don't and won't work that way.

He was eventually removed from the project by his company for poor communication and screwing things up. Without going into details a deadline slipped and it turned into he said/she said. I was able to provide documentation (emails) showing that we did not drop any balls. Had I relied only on phone conversations, I would have been screwed.

It is a big world out there. You should pick and choose your business partners based on compatibility. If you're a phone-only guy, you won't work on my projects. That is just the reality. I routinely send work emails up to and past midnight 7 days a week. I do not insist that my subs or partners do the same, but some do. I am much more reachable by email than phone, partly due to my bias (I don't like talking on the phone) and partly by design (paper trail). These days any telecon is immediately followed up with email notes of the conversation. Same with in-person which I vastly prefer to phone.

[Zeke]

Reading back thru this thread I get the idea that people on this forum think I'm a dinosaur. My email addy is on my card. I welcome emails and faxes. What do I get? Phone calls on Sundays.

Anyway, I just got home from working for a 70 YO widow. I've had to work around her major and frequent idiosyncrasies. No problem for me and she loves that fact that I'd pick up her dogs' crap if she wanted me to. See, she's not too able. I wouldn't do that for a 30 something.

No argument about my wage either. I might have found my new niche.

[Dottore]

For what it's worth Milt, there are lots of us out here who would rather hire a competent old coot like your good self even if the price is higher. Any time!

I have been through contractor-hell for the past three years on several home renovations, additions etc. and have become extraordinarily cynical about the carpetbaggers and charlatans that inhabit these trades. I'm guessing one in ten is even remotely competent. Maybe that's too generous.

My particular pet peeve is the earnest elderly experienced contractor who tips up to eyeball the project and give a cost estimate (and who appears to be supremely capable), but who you never see again after you have signed the work order, and who is suddenly and inexplicably replaced by gangs of juvenile delinquents who do the actual work—and inevitably do it very badly—while the "boss" looks after other projects.

[Zeke]

That's an easy problem to solve. Ask upfront how it's gonna work and who is doing the work.You have a right to know.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by milt

That's an easy problem to solve. Ask upfront how it's gonna work and who is doing the work.You have a right to know.

Not so easy. After the first few times I did of course ask.

In each case there was talk about a "team", but that he (the senior guy) would be hands on and on the site each day; that all of his team were highly qualified etc etc.. Inevitably this didn't happen, but there is very little you can do at that point. You call the guy up and he'll drop by only to disappear again etc.

[m21sniper]

[QUOTE=fintstone;4638350]

Originally Posted by javadog

What part of "cannot" didn't you understand? I work in an isolated government facility. I go there early in the morning and come back late at night. I cannot use a cell phone or any personal communication device there. Most places I go or work do not allow this due to security...others are simply "off the grid." When I am not there...I am on military reserve duty in similar or worse places (without a phone) keeping guys like you safe at home in your cushy jobs where you cannot be bothered to contact me in any way except what is easiest for you.

My last bulding project (remodel) lasted a year. I did not meet the fellow in person until after the job was completed. He did a great job.

I agree with fint.

Any contractor that cant be bothered to email has no business biitching that he cannot get enough work.

Some of the contractors on this thread would get little more from me than the door slammed in their face.

[jyl]

Look, its just business.

At the end of the day, a business needs customers, and has to do what it takes to get those customers. If a business has more customers than it needs, then it can have an inflexible "my way or . . ." attitude. Until one day it doesn't. And then the business may have to be a little more flexible. In this economy, I think a lot of businesses are having to be more flexible.

Having a simple website and being reachable by emails on a Blackberry are not big deals, not compromising anyone's principles - its just adapting to the younger generation's ways, schedules, and expectations.