Pilot should NOT have been in the Left Seat!

[tcar]

Colgan says Renslow should never have been flying. Lied about failing 5 check rides.


http://news.aol.com/article/airline-says-pilot-marvin-renslow-should/607790


Exec Says Pilot Should Not Have Flown

Captain in Crash That Killed 50 Had Failed Five Pilot Tests

An airline executive whose plane crashed earlier this year said although the pilot was "a fine man by all accounts," had the airline "known what we know now ... he would not have been in that seat."
Colgan Air Flight 3407 crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., on Feb. 12, killing all 49 on the plane and one person on the ground.

[GH85Carrera]

We all want Sullenburg as our pilot, not some yahoo like Colgan.

[fingpilot]

The phrase 'Ya gets what ya pay for' comes to mind.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by fingpilot

The phrase 'Ya gets what ya pay for' comes to mind.

+1

Airlines have been bottom feeding for pilots for the longest time (especially regionals). They're reaping what they sow.

This is a direct result of the ridiculously low fares that are being charged. Airlines forced to compete at the bottom-of-the-barrel prices being charged today have to skimp on everything - including pilot salaries.

[Embraer]

Yep...pax want cheap fares. They want safety, all the way until the point where it costs an extra $10 a ticket.

[oldschoollear]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

+1

Airlines have been bottom feeding for pilots for the longest time (especially regionals). They're reaping what they sow.

This is a direct result of the ridiculously low fares that are being charged. Airlines forced to compete at the bottom-of-the-barrel prices being charged today have to skimp on everything - including pilot salaries.

Sadly, SJS'ers were ,and will be, lining up for those jobs at the same rates "just to get their foot in the door". They are developing a precedent for low wages because they don't want to sacrifice a few years to flight instruction, freight, banner towing etc. I'm sure there are plenty of guys like me (3500tt+, gobs of multi ,600 tpic, ) who refuse to work for that BS.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by fingpilot

The phrase 'Ya gets what ya pay for' comes to mind.

Yep and very happy that in another 5-7 years I will retire from this rat race called "making a living in aviation" and restore antique airplanes for fun!

[URY914]

The pilot lived here in the Tampa area and had/has teenage kids and a wife. Must be hard to read this about your dad being responsible for killing 49 people. When it happened the local news were all over how he was a great guy and wonderful dad.

[Joeaksa]

Paul,

Thats the responsibility that every pilot takes with them every time they strap into the airplane.

Personally it does not bother me in the least. My focus is getting one person safely back on the ground and that person is me. As I am usually the first to hit (very front seat in the jet) if I get on the ground safely, then everyone behind me should be in the same situation.

Sorry it did not turn out better with the airplane in Buffalo...

Joe A

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by oldschoollear

Sadly, SJS'ers were ,and will be, lining up for those jobs at the same rates "just to get their foot in the door". They are developing a precedent for low wages because they don't want to sacrifice a few years to flight instruction, freight, banner towing etc. I'm sure there are plenty of guys like me (3500tt+, gobs of multi ,600 tpic, ) who refuse to work for that BS.

I know the feeling... I've got about 2700TT and just under 1000 multi myself. I just re-upped my CFI hoping to get some time instructing just to keep myself involved/busy but the industry is (like most others) at a total standstill out here. No hiring, no movement, very few students. I haven't seen it this bad since right after 9/11. Actually I think now is even worse than it was post-9/11, and post-9/11 was pretty sucky.

I have to admit the thought of getting into a "shiny jet" has some appeal (especially as I've been sitting around without a real income for almost a year now) but OTOH I'm at an age now where the "SJS" won't sufficiently entice me to sit in the right seat looking at CRTs and making radio calls for 10+ years at $15 an hour or whatever. No thanks. I can make more than that flying C172s instructing (assuming the economy starts recovering and people start flying more again).

Yeah, the flying is fun and I miss it, but for the same money as a right-seat regional guy I'd rather go back to flying my beat-up PA31s and Be99s - at least I was actually FLYING those - by hand, in actual IMC, day-in and day-out. I enjoyed the hell out of that job even if the schedules/salary/layovers/benefits all sucked.

[air-cool-me]

the industry is (like most others) at a total standstill out here. No hiring, no movement, very few students. I haven't seen it this bad since right after 9/11.

your right... I sent an app to just about everything I have found and figured I would sort out the peices.. not a peep.

[Joeaksa]

Actually the market is moving A LOT more than it was 3-6 months ago. Friend of mine doing contract work sat for 4 months during this time period as there was simply nothing available. He has 20,000 TT and types out the wazoo.

Fast forward to a month/six weeks ago and he has three contracts to chose from. He is now in London heading to Cairo then on to Dubai.

Its opening up, slowly but better than it was.

[air-cool-me]

I have a feeling It will be a while till I find work the market has to digest the better qualified..

[Rick Lee]

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that a commercial jet pilot can make so little. I definitely don't want underpaid folks flying me. I'd be happy to pay more for a ticket. At $20k a year for job requiring such skills, I'm wondering why they don't have a brandy sniffer or tip jar by the cockpit door.

[Joeaksa]

Rick,

One of my old copilots contacted me a couple of years ago. Tried like the dickens to get me to come and fly with him. He was doing contract work flying Boeing 747's. It would have cost me about $9,000 to get type rated on the "whale" as we call it, and thats reasonable. Was actually thinking about it then asked him how much he was getting paid. Very proudly he said $7,000 a month and that burst my balloon because I was making at that time $12k a month flying private jets. We pay our experienced copilots more than he was making as a Captain on the B747 but he is on contract, and not full time with an airline.

Now before everyone gets all excited about this, my cost for recurrent training, and I do this once a year or do not work, was $14-19,000 for a 5 day session in the classroom and sim. Yes, at least $5000 a day to "re-train" and be certified for the same airplane I have been flying for 10 years now.

Then you realize that you have to work off that $14-19k expense, and doing so means that you will spend about 7-8 months a year on the road. Some of the places are nice, like London, Berlin, Moscow and so on, while others like anywhere in India, Saudi, Africa and so on you are taking your life in your hands. I did it for a long time (4+ years) and its a rough life.

One last thing, I am at the twilight in my career, and with around 17,000 hours TT and 5 type ratings. I should be making good money as retirement is right around the corner. I am the "old grey haired fart' in the left seat that they put the new copilots with to learn. Still in the corporate world would want to see you guys making at least $50k to start and frankly after you have some good time in the jet, would like to see $70k a year. Again thats the corporate world, not airline.

Joe A

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Agreed, the real exploitation occurs in the regional airlines. Corporate, factional, charter and the like typically pay a lot better - this is market driven and I suspect the result of having to compensate flight crews for being shackled to a pager their entire life (24/7/365 in some cases). I looked into it a few years ago (I had a lead to fly charter in a Lear 35 before I got hired to fly cargo) but that was the deal - I'd have been paid okay, but if the pager went off, I MUST have been at the aircraft within 1 hour, ready to fly. 3AM, holidays, whatever. This severely limits one's options. Can't go off camping for a weekend, can't drive to Phoenix or Vegas for the day, etc. Can't have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner (8 hour "bottle-to-throttle" rule, if the pager goes off after you've had a sip, technically you're illegal). So it's a tradeoff for the guys doing that life. You're never really "off duty" and never really have your life to yourself. But that's what I'd have been paid for. I ultimately decided "not worth it" for the salary and the "privilege" of sitting in the right seat for god-knows-how-long. It was an okay deal, but not a great deal.

The regionals are experts at "carrot dangling" - particularly to the young hotshot guys with the big egos. They all want to be "shiny jet" guys and the airlines know it. So they let 'em have their shiny jet but they pay 'em crap and treat 'em like crap (they whip a lot of those guys VERY hard with respect to their duty schedules and time away from home - I know of a couple where FOs have to buy their own uniforms, charts, etc. - on their $15k-$20k per year salaries) But they get away with it because there's an endless supply of expendable labor in the form of kids with "1000-and-1" (1000 hours T/T and 100 hours multiengine) who want to brag to their buddies about flying an EMB or an RJ, and enjoy an occasional jump seat trip or buddy pass. The airlines are all-too-happy to do this, as it helps them cut costs and perpetuate the "fare wars" which go on every other week.

Naturally in a downturn like this, corporate and charter take a beating (as do the regional and major airlines). Never mind that the businesses that buy corporate jets can own them for very little (they're allowed to deduct the depreciation on the aircraft annually and there are an awful lot of companies who carry a HELL of a lot more tax liability every year than the amortized cost of a jet or two). I know a guy (a former flight student of mine, actually) who brokered an acquisition of a Lear 45 and a King Air for a client of his. Their costs of owning the aircraft are NOTHING except operating costs due to the tax write-offs. It effectively costs this company ZERO to own the aircraft except when they actually use it (fuel, crew cost, maintenance, etc.) But naturally perception is everything and corporate jets are seen as "evil" and "ostentatious" by the idiot masses out there (reference the recent firestorm over GM/Ford/Chrysler CEOs "daring" to show up in DC in their aircraft).

It's truly a screwy industry. I honestly think it's one of the toughest and grittiest industries to make a living in (along with construction of course), but the actual flying part is addictively zen-like. There's nothing like it on earth and I'm a very, very fortunate individual to have been touched by it and be one of the few who's able to do it occasionally (albeit not as much as I'd like or to the extent a lot of the other guys here do).

[Moses]

Originally Posted by fingpilot

The phrase 'Ya gets what ya pay for' comes to mind.

No kidding. They can charge $20 to carry a bag but won't pay for a top quality flight crew. Nonsense.

If an airline advertised slightly higher prices so they could hire the very best crews, I'd bet a significant % of the population would support that.

Lot and lots of training required to be a top notch pilot. I find it embarrassing that some of them don't even make $100,000.

[tcar]

Just amazing.

The people in yellow vests moving cars around the Hertz parking lot make almost as much as the regional pilot. The Hertz guy has no training and no experience required.

With all that, airline travel is STILL the safest way to get around.

[rick-l]

Gotta belive it is true. My instrument instructor one day vanished. Hmmm as an aside ask in casual conversation once in a while how many hours they need for an ATP license. He called a week later and said he got a job with a regional that paid the equivalent of $15,000. He was also working alot of hours loading baggage and taking tickets.

[Joeaksa]

Moses,

The commuter airlines are the worst with this, and believe that the copilot on the Buffalo airplane was getting paid $16,000 a year. Its terrible yet no one seems to be changing it.

Rick,

That is VERY common in the grass roots arena. I know of people going for their private pilot licenses who go through 4-5 instructors as every time they turn around the current one is hired and gone. This results in it costing the student more money to break in a new instructor who has no idea how the student was doing with the previous people. It also means that no instructor stays very long in the business, so they usually do not have very much experience, which results in pilots who are not that good.