China unveiled the COMAC C-919

[m21sniper]

There are some American cars i would buy. Not many, but some. I do understand your point about UAW though.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Actually made in Korea and Made in Taiwan are still not exactly logos i look for Sammy. I wouldn't buy a Korean car even with your money.

Your choice. But Hyundais are arguably better and more reliable than cars made by ford, chevy, or chrysler.
I'd rather buy a Hyundai than a ford any day of the week. At least I'd know I wouldn't have to scrap it or trade it for almost nothing in 50,000 miles like the last two fords I bought.

The point is their manufacturing is evolving and getting better, ours is not. At least not at the same pace.
Same with the Chinese.

[fingpilot]

Originally Posted by Playa76911S

Not true...most of the 33 Chinese built Douglas MD-80s and MD-90s are still in service, mostly with China Southern Airlines.

What's wild is that TWA bought five of these birds and they're currently in service with American Airlines! You could be flying on a Chinese made jet (on "American" Airlines ) and not even know it! Check out the fleet list at airlinerlist.com and see for yourself.

The Chinese government paid Douglas big bucks to train their employees on building airliners. They really took their time building them, and Douglas double checked everything before sending them out. Pretty interesting stories about this over on airliners.net.

Well, like most things out of Mainland China, it's what the Chinese government says it is.

Lets look at that statement carefully, and I'll translate.

The Chinese Govt. paid Douglas big bucks to train their employees on building airliners. (I think that statement stands for itself. I'll bet they did. Did Douglas really want to introduce non-english-speaking low labor cost competitive laborers to a market already feeling the pinch of Airbus? I think not. What I saw personally in Long Beach was a lot of monkee-see, monkey-do. With a lot of pidgen engrish in between).

They really took their time building them. (Yep. They did. LOTS of time. What happens when you mess up a rivet? You drill it out, and put another one in. How many times can you do that before you have a hole bigger than a Winnemucca Waitress? Yep, lots of time. Remember, these were being 'assembled' in Guangzhou (Canton), where time was of no consequence, because no one was ever going to worry about how much they cost to build. The Douglas guys were getting hazardous duty pay, living at the Central Hotel. $200USD for daily food per diem. B, L, and D was maybe $20, and a 'special' dessert in the basement 'Health Club' was another $5. No one was in any hurry to finish these things until they were as right as could be done. Especially since everyone was happy going with the flow. Everyone was aware that this was a make-good/play-nice program that came from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.)

Douglas double checked them before sending them out. Yep. Douglas quintuple quintouple double duck checked them out before walking away, hoping to never see them again. At the conclusion of this round of 'construction', Douglas withdrew (much to the consternation of the Clinton Administration) their guarantee of factory support for this program. The entire deal was to keep the Chinese in the 'American sphere' of aircraft for the fastest growing segment of aviation in the world. It worked. But the license built MD's were a disgrace, and even the Chinese knew it.

The SAEGO heavy maintenance facility in Guangzhou is what remains of the factory that built these planes, and the Chinese quickly discovered much more hard currency was to be made doing heavy checks (C and D checks) on worldwide carriers with FAA, JAA and european certification using their cheap laborers with ex-pat CERTIFIED supervision.

I was in the assembly hangar in Guanzghou (in 1992) when the last MD's were being 'assembled', and it was not a pretty sight. You know that old saying about the two things you never want to see being made? Airplanes and sausage.

I witnessed the boneyard in Shenzen (in 1997) where all but 1 or 2 of them were in varying states of decay. There was no explanantion for the 2 not there. I figured they were pushing up daisys somewhere inland. If they now supposedly have MD90's(717) (no matter who made them), Boeing is making sure they don't last too much longer.

My next door neighbor has been at AA for 24 years, in the MD80's. They complain vociferously about the MD's they got from QQ (RenoAir) when they aquired that airline for their gates and routes. I flew a lot of those, and as MD80's went, they weren't that bad. AA have managed to get rid of most of those, even after rebuilding and reworking their quirky options to conform to AA specs. I'd bet bottom dollar none of the Chinese birds are there. They were a joke in the community, and would have stuck out like a sore thumb anywhere. With all the current and perfectly pickled MD's in the deserts these days, why would anyone (let alone AA) take one of those pigs?

I'll go look at airliners.net, but like PPrune and some of the other 'public access' airliner sites, they are filled with 'experts' whose expertise was gained at the window at the airport bar. I was actually employed at CSA and still have my ID there, pioneering their domestic routes to qualify them for ICAO certification. That project took two years. Should have taken 6 months. By the way, even though I as well as the other 5 ex-pats were all typed, current, and willing to fly DC-9's, we used Challengers for the task. Bombardier 'donated' the Swiss-registered CL601 and that meant I had to go to Switzerland to get my Swiss ATP (expert) license in a plane I had been typed in for several years. Eventually, Montreal got us a couple of N-registered US planes to use. Bombardier REALLY wanted to get their foot in the door in PRC as well.

Boeing made sure they got planes (737, 777) that they could train on forever, and the MD's were a dinosaur then, and still are. Purchasing McDonnell-Douglas and then killing the 717 program made sure of that.

I could probably write a book about those years there, but even now, no one would believe how politics (ours, not theirs) got in the way of real progress. There were a lot of aviation people in PRC that wanted real change and total autonomy, and I aligned with them and saluted their efforts. One of my best friends there is now DirOps at CSA (USC educated and a superb pilot), and he is constantly challenged and thwarted by politics, both domestic and foreign. It's getting better as he proves his ideas about how China should stand in the modern aviation world, and CSA's prowess and safety record are his to own. In a country where there are only a few government sponsored regional airlines.

It will be interesting to see if the politics will stymie the production of aircraft in China again.

[fingpilot]

I had another thought. Have you ever seen that (famous) video of the MD-80 landing hard at Palmdale, and the tail falling off? That was the demonstration plane that Douglas used for the 'teaching dummy' for the Chinese program. It is a riot.

Later (after it was repaired and reflown), it was the demonstrator for the experimental UDF (Unducted Fan) engine. Looked like a normal jet engine, except it had an external fan at the back edge of the cowling. Like 27 blades, shorter than a prop, but more like the scimitar inlet blades of a modern turbofan engine except they were on the outside. It was a disaster (vibration galore, numerous 'unstarts' at high altitude, fuel consumption was atrocious, the list goes on). They only mounted one on the plane, a conventional JT8D-217 on the other side.

When the order finally came down to park this thing, it would not pressurize it had vibrated itself to death so badly. Remember Winnemucca?

[alf]

Dismissing everything Made in China as crap is foolish; it is simply not true. It is such attitudes that makes us loose our competitive edge. Think US auto industry vs the Japanese in the 70s.

Keep up our delusions of grandure and arrogant attitudes and we will surely fall flat on our collective asses.

Want to compete? Work harder, smarter and faster than your competitor. Whining and complaining about them does absolutely no good.

[fingpilot]

Alf;

I was talking about PRC in the late 90's. I am still in and out of PRC now, and I agree with you. We are in trouble here in the good ole USA.

Especially since we are now basically 'owned' by the PRC Central Bank.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Your choice. But Hyundais are arguably better and more reliable than cars made by ford, chevy, or chrysler.

Speaking as a formally educated automotive technician....you're insane.

[Zef]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Speaking as a formally educated automotive technician....you're insane.

What's is insane is to say that US made cars are reliables....Do whatever search you want, and prove us that the US made cars are reliables...! http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-archive/april-2009/cars/best-and-worst/used-car-reliability/best-and-worst-used-car-reliability.htm
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/what-car-reliability-survey/the-top-100-cars/217350

[m21sniper]

I never said they're reliable, i said that Korean cars are crap.

And by the way, every euro car ive ever had (and ive had several) have had plenty of issues with them too.

The most reliable car ive ever had was a Chevy. Hmmm....then again, maybe it was a jeep(Chrysler).

[jyl]

Ford's reliability record per CU is getting much better. GM and Chrysler, I'm not sure.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Speaking as a formally educated automotive technician....you're insane.

My father owned MOPARs for something like 30 years straight. He grew up in Richard Petty's hometown in NC, so that was the only car to drive. After a string of crappy Chrysler products he finally gave up. He's on his second dead reliable Hyundai, no regrets.

China will have a very difficult time certifying a Chinese-built airliner with the FAA. The amount of documentation and testing is simply massive, and everything has to be witnessed and approved by FAA delegates. Other foreign companies certify their airplanes within their nation's airworthiness office, who then have bilateral agreements with our FAA. These agreements take years and a satisfactory track record to establish. Long story short, these airplanes may hurt Boeing and Airbus sales within China, but I wouldn't expect to see them in the USA for quite some time.

[1967 R50/2]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Well, their airports are a lot nicer than ours. And their current fleet are all new Airbus and Boeing planes. Domestic flying in China is such a nicer experience than in the U.S. Flight attendants are gorgeous, young and not fat, all women.

I think your flying has been selective. While most are par for the global experience, I've been on some flights which were horrible.

I agree about the female flight attendants, but there are male stewards as well.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Flight attendants in the U.S. have gone way downhill. I swear they're recruiting from the local Dennys these days... And the gay bars.

Don't know about China but one thing I LOVED about Air France was the flight attendants didn't feel the need to hear themselves yap on the intercom every five minutes. I was actually able to relax and get some sleep. It was wonderful.

[Zef]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Flight attendants in the U.S. have gone way downhill. I swear they're recruiting from the local Dennys these days... And the gay bars.

Don't know about China but one thing I LOVED about Air France was the flight attendants didn't feel the need to hear themselves yap on the intercom every five minutes. I was actually able to relax and get some sleep. It was wonderful.

I flew once with Olympic Airlines....Whoooooooo....was a dream...

[Zef]

OK...OK...get back to the Chiness made AC....focus guys...focus.