Printed Circuit Board Question. - Page 2

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Take a picture of the other side. Do you have the original relay? If so, take pics of that. If you have a good looking wife, gf or daughter, this thread could use some upgrading...

Gogar · 12-26-2009, 12:55 PM

It is a multi-layer board, but everything checks out on the front side as far as I can tell. Some of the traces on the front side are VERY small, though. In addition I can't really see which pins of the relay the front side traces go to.

Maybe it's time for a new camera, I know.

"9544" is the new relay, the one next to it is unlabled, except for a date. I suppose if I take out the "new" one, the info for the old one is on the side I can't see.

I did not get my "old" relay back.

Sorry, Red. Maybe this will help.

dad911 · 12-26-2009, 01:16 PM

I circled the connections that 'switch' the relay. Check them carefully, and follow them if possible.

Is the one on the right shorting to the hole next to it? And if it is, should it be?

Think the tech that worked on it has a schematic for the board?

Gogar · 12-26-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dad911

Is the one on the right shorting to the hole next to it? And if it is, should it be?
?

Dad,

Yes, the connection you're asking about DOES have continuity with the hole. They are tied together via a trace that is difficult to see under the burnt resin. The hole leads to a front-side trace and off to an IC. Same for the other relay.

Thank you!

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Take a look at my notes

Based on this, I don't think there are any issues with the connections in the long L shaped part of the trace.

Are both relays stuck on? If so, then the T-Switch circuit which activates the relays is still crapped out.

I also see that if he switched leads around, he might have fried a relay, or more precisley, fried it on. You would be putting all the juice through one relay which feeds both boilers (twice what it is rated for). The other one will get power as normal. Twice the rated current might fuse the contacts together, making it "stick" in the on position. I've seen it happen. You might consider replacing both relays again.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Before you go ANY further, check to see if there is continuity Between FA1 and FA2, and then Check FA1 to FA3. This is of course with the power not turned on!!!!!!!

If there is continuity between FA1 & FA2 or FA1 & FA3, you have a stuck relay, with burned contacts. The associated relay (FA2 or FA3) will need to be replaced.

If there is no continuity issue, then you need to concentrate on the T-switch circuits.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogar

I'm glad I didn't look at the second picture until after getting the "work" done.

Gogar · 12-26-2009, 02:11 PM

Thanks, Red.

Yes, your notes are correct.

More info:

The leads the tech had "backwards" are the leads for FA2 and FA3, the higher current connections to the boiler heat coils. One for the "steam boiler" (FA2), and one for the "coffee boiler") FA3.

Technichally, I don't feel that, if switched, they would present a problem, it's just that the boilers would be heating at improper temps.

However, I agree that maybe I will replace BOTH relays, since it's only a $20 run for the gold, as opposed to my more-expensive alternative.

Thanks!

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

See my post about checking continuity. If one of the boilers pulls more current than the other, then the relay could be fried as I described.

Gogar · 12-26-2009, 02:28 PM

NO continuity between FA1 and either FA2 or FA3.

The relay I can see is a Potter & Brumfield

RKS-11DX-24

10A 250V AC or 30VDC

SPST? There's only one little switch icon on the side.

slodave · slodave's Garage

There's your problem...

Potter & Brumfield

I mean, who uses Potter & Brumfield anyway?

Gogar · 12-26-2009, 02:37 PM

Italian guys named Luigi, apparently.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

If there is no continuity when off, and the boilers turn on when the unit is powered, the relays are not the problem. Look to the circuit activating the relays, the part I've labeled T-Switch connection.

Well, I've reviewed both the electrical wiring diagram and the parts book. The temp probes are the same, so they are not switches, but RTDs, or maybe thermistors. You can adjust the temp settings of these (I looked at the manual!).

At this point, I think Mario or Luigi or who ever worked on the machine, screwed something up in the process of changing a simple temp probe. You may indeed have a dead board, now. You need to talk with him and find out why he changed the relay.

stogie25 · stogie25's Garage

Since you are local, a personal visit would simplify things. PM sent.

targa911S · 12-26-2009, 06:19 PM

This is one of the best threads this year I swear!

Think I'll go fire up my $20.00 Braun and have some Joe now.

porsche4life · porsche4life's Garage

Jeremy... Aren't those Jims step dtrs?

Sapporo Guy · 12-26-2009, 07:10 PM

That is why I mentioned that you should ask the company about their procedures. I had a feeling that Mario / Luigi bros had dinged your board by not fixing it correctly.

Ask for procedures first, then ask what is proper fixing methods, then mention what you got.
With the advice you'Re getting from red and slo you have enough ammo to bing Mario.

The company might just relent to either a new working board or to a new board for the price of the original repair bill (just the sensor repair).

@ girls ...
lolo, I had to double check if duel wasn't posting

IF I only was younger

9dreizig · 12-26-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogar

Yes, the connection you're asking about DOES have continuity with the hole. They are tied together via a trace that is difficult to see under the burnt resin

What exactly were you refering to Jeremy ?? Burnt resin has blurred my vision more than once too

m21sniper · 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogar

Thanks, Einstein.

I'm always here for you bro!

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa911S

This is one of the best threads this year I swear!

Think I'll go fire up my $20.00 Braun and have some Joe now.

A man after my own heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

What exactly were you refering to Jeremy ?? Burnt resin has blurred my vision more than once too

And another one!

Gogar · 01-07-2010, 04:37 PM

So, for those watching, thanks for your help.

Since my last post I removed the (recently professionally installed

) relay, which was the power relay for the "coffee boiler" heat-coil.

Keep in mind, right next to it, was the untouched (orig) chinese relay, for the steam boiler. Both relays are SPDT relays.

The new relay, when removed, has something floating around inside it, which leads us to believe it's bad.

So, both relays perform IDENTICAL functions, so since I don't have a schematic that provides component values or anything,

I ASSUME (uh-oh) that both relays should use similar values. That's a fair assumption, right?

FYI:

The Potter and Brumfield relay that Luigi gave me spec'd as such:

Coil voltage: 24VDC. (important!)
Contact rating: 10A at 250VDC (or10VDC)
On: 8.4V, Off: 1.2V

Fine, but check out the specs of the ORIG RELAY:

Coil voltage: 12VDC (hmmmmmm!)
Contact rating 16A at 240VDC (or24VDC)
On: 8.4V, Off: 1.2V

That leads me to believe that the 24V coil-voltage requirement of Luigi's relay
(BTW that he charged me $15 for, plus the $85/hr)
was not being met, and the coil wasn't even suffiiciently energizing to make the relay
(which has $hit floating around in it anyway)

work.

Am I right? Thank you!

So, I've ordered 2 new relays from digikey that spec out much more similar to the ORIGINAL relay, and those should be here sometime next week.