Toyota unintended acceleration and recalls, Part 2

[sammyg2]

I drive a tundra. I had another tundra before this one.

No problems so far fastening the floor mats correctly or remembering which one is the go pedal and which one is the stop pedal

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I drive a tundra. I had another tundra before this one.

No problems so far fastening the floor mats correctly or remembering which one is the go pedal and which one is the stop pedal

Did ya read the recall?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Did ya read the recall?

Ya mean the one that says this?:

What is the condition that has prompted Toyota to take this action?
In rare instances, there is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, mechanically stick in a partially depressed position or return slowly to the idle position.

What is the likelihood that my vehicle will experience this condition?
The condition is rare and does not occur suddenly. It can occur when the pedal mechanism becomes worn and, in certain conditions, the accelerator pedal may become harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed position.

If I am an owner of one of the affected vehicles, what action do I need to take?
Toyota is working quickly to prepare a correction remedy and will issue owner notifications in the future. No action is required at this time unless you feel you are experiencing this condition. If you are experiencing this condition, immediately contact your nearest Toyota Dealer for assistance.

if my pedal starts acting up and gets stiff or sticky, I'll deal with it. Just like every other potential mechanical problem.

I know how to fasten my floor mats correctly (which are still in place BTW).
I know where the ignition key is and how to turn it off.
I know where the gear shift is and I know how to put it in neutral.
I know where the brake is and how to push on it.
I know how my gas pedal feels and will notice it if it starts feeling unusual.

Believe me the brakes on a newer tundra are MORE than enough to haul down the truck even at full throttle. They are huge.
14" front rotors with aluminum 6 piston calipers, 13" rear rotors with 4 piston calipers.
Just looking at the brake pedal is enough to slow one of these trucks down. Even without the power assist they're probably stronger than ford brakes.
I am not concerned at all.

This issue is over-blown and over-hyped. toyota is going overboard as a publicity deal. They want to be seen as the company that cares and will hurt themselves before putting the public in danger, as opposed to ford who would rather burn up people than admit their car has a design issue.

Toyota doesn't stand to lose that much money on this.
They were selling cars for very little profit. They're betting that if they sit on them for a little while and then come out with an advertising campaign with the spotlight on how overly-cautious they were over public safety, they'll come out smelling like a rose and the price will go up and they'll be able to sell the cars anyway, maybe at a higher mark-up.

I am not concerned at all.

[gprsh924]

Sammy the cars they pulled off of the market accounted for 57% of their sales last year. The shutdown is going to cost them over $450 million a week. This is not a minor issue for them. They need to get their S together.

Toyota Sales Halt Raises Quality Questions - WSJ.com

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by dd74

Well, the fact is, by virtue of us communicating on this board, do we seem to have an edge in driving and understanding how to recover out-of-control automobiles. I would expect the same of a rider on a motorcycle forum or a person on a horse forum.

But the world at large would undoubtedly be panicked if a stuck throttle were to come into their reality while driving. ...

And if I was panicked, what would any "normal" person do?

MASH ON THE BRAKES FOR ALL I AM WORTH TO MAKE THE DAMNED THING STOP!

I help teach the Tire Rack Street Survival School to teens. One of the lessons is that mashing on the brakes is not always the best answer to make the car do what you want in a abnormal driving situation but more often than not it is the instinctive reaction. In this case, it is exactly what you want to do.

[McLovin]

So, where did these accelerator pedal mechanisms originate from?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by McLovin

So, where did these accelerator pedal mechanisms originate from?

Probably America, just like the rusting frames.

[Scott R]

I have a rental Prius from Hertz as of today, (some guy tagged my land rover) and before I drove off the guy came and pulled the floor mats out. Said he was instructed to remove them from all of their vehicles. Didn't put two and two together until I read this.

BTW: Trying to figure out how to get a Prius started and moving forward is an interesting experience the first time.

[gprsh924]

I was a mere 17 when the throttle cable slipped off of the cam and left the engine in the 924 revving like crazy I was approaching a stop sign at an extremely busy intersection with cars crossing at 50mph. My only instinct was to put the car in neutral, hit the brakes to get it stopped and shut off the ignition. Its scary to think how helpless most are behind the wheel.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Yeah, forget all this electronic bullspit.

I WANT CABLES. Mechanically linked cables.

That is all.

I agree with this one. BMW tried a few years ago to come up with a steer-by-wire system, and of course it actually worked. It wasn't implemented because it is simply not 100% reliable. Besides, all countries require a DIRECT MECHANICAL connection between the steering wheel and the rack, so it was never going to be sold anyway.

-The reason that throttle-by-wire is being used by more and more companies on their vehicles is the same old retarded one that got Detroit's big three in so much trouble: It saves money. Yes, a rheostat in the pedal, a wire, a computer, and an actuator at the throttle plate are cheaper than a cable from pedal to throttle, a cruise control mechanism, and a traction control mechanism. Since the throttle-by-wire can do all these things with ONE actuator instead of THREE, one computer instead of three....several dozen parts are no longer needed and several dozen manufacturing steps are deleted, saving huge amounts of money.

Thus.....Toyota is going to wind up "spending a dollar to save a dime".

N!

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by McLovin

So, where did these accelerator pedal mechanisms originate from?

CTS Corp based in Elkhart, Indiana but the plant is in Mississauga, Ontario.
They also make pedal assemblys for Ford, GM, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes-Benz, Subaru, Nissan....

[legion]

Originally Posted by kaisen

CTS Corp based in Elkhart, Indiana but the plant is in Mississauga, Ontario.
They also make pedal assemblys for Ford, GM, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes-Benz, Subaru, Nissan....

Which is why I don't think the problem is actually with the accelerator pedal.

Though this does have the makings of another Firestone debacle...

(Jacques Nassar threw Firestone under the bus when it was Ford that had requested the lightened tires (layers removed) in the first place and insisted on them over Firestone's protests.)

[dd74]

Toyota suggests condensation has something to do with the failure. So maybe it isn't all about the gas pedal.

[porsche4life]

Anything I could do to check out a friends car for her? It's a '10 Corolla... We are a few hrs away from the dealer...


Just make sure it doesnt feel sticky?

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

I read somewhere that witnesses to the CHP officer crash said that the rear of the car was on fire at the brakes when the car went speeding by. Makes a bit of sense, the car crashed shortly thereafter, went into the river and then exploded into a mess of flames.

This is one that will be taught in engineering schools for years to come. There is no practical reason that I can think of that you wouldn't program the computer to shut down the engine to idle when you step on the brake. This is almost common sense, yet not implemented on these cars (this has been implemented on other cars like recent BMWs).

Also, on these modern cars, you can start the car with just the push of a button - there is no "key" like the old days - it's all electronic (which I've heard makes it very easy to steal electronic codes from your key - but that's a different story). With only a start button, there's no traditional method to turn off the car. I test drove a Mercedes CL55 AMG the other day that had the on/off switch on the gearshift lever. One touch and it was off (which was annoying, by the way). To turn off these cars, you have to hold down the start button for something like three seconds - very similar to how you would turn off a crashed computer. I would like to think that a "computer guy" might have thought of this in that situation, but who knows.

I know that I borrowed my cousin's Mercedes SUV the other day and had trouble figuring out how to start it and turn it off with all of the electronic gizmos attached. It didn't need a key put in anywhere, so I put it on the console, and it promptly fell between the seats - took 10 min to find it. Give me old fashioned keys please, any day.

In theory, these cars should be *safer* than a cable controlled car because you can electronically tell the engine to shut down if there is a problem. Sadly, the dunderhead engineers at Toyota didn't appear to really think about this.

-Wayne

Wayne:

You are seeking what seems to be a lost engineering art that was taught to me as "Machine Design". You might remeber this where the engineer spends time making sure the interface witht he human makes sense and allows for human control during both normal and abnormal operating conditions.

You highlight a serious issue with many "so called" designers. I am often shocked by the designs I get from some of the younger folks we hire to do design for us.

Often, they are so focused on the new features they neglect to consider the failure modes and how "non-savvy" people (for lack of a better term) will be able to use the thing safely.

The keyless issue you raise is a perfect example. On many levels it seems to be a solution searching for a problem. When implemented, creates a whole new set of problems.

For any machinery, in industrial settings I am expected to install a EMO (Emergency Machine Off) switch that when pressed will IMMEDIATELY kill the operation of the machine. These switches are typically hard wired to bypass the controls an cause a stoppage immediately. Often is is simply pulling the plug or cutting hte air supply. The controls do not mediate the stopping action. It does not require me to press it for more than a moment for me to accomplish this goal. The switch is typically a muchroom style so the operator knows he has sucessfully operated the switch when things are going horribly wrong and all he wants to do is MAKE IT STOP NOW!

If you have a keyless car, you need a switch like this to address any number of emergency situations. It could be programmed to put the tranny in neutral, kill the engine or do any number of things to cause the vehicle to stop putting energy to the wheels and allow it to stop. Most important, it does with without using the main control system but acts directly to stop the power inputs.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Normy

I agree with this one. BMW tried a few years ago to come up with a steer-by-wire system, and of course it actually worked. It wasn't implemented because it is simply not 100% reliable. Besides, all countries require a DIRECT MECHANICAL connection between the steering wheel and the rack, so it was never going to be sold anyway.

-The reason that throttle-by-wire is being used by more and more companies on their vehicles is the same old retarded one that got Detroit's big three in so much trouble: It saves money. Yes, a rheostat in the pedal, a wire, a computer, and an actuator at the throttle plate are cheaper than a cable from pedal to throttle, a cruise control mechanism, and a traction control mechanism. Since the throttle-by-wire can do all these things with ONE actuator instead of THREE, one computer instead of three....several dozen parts are no longer needed and several dozen manufacturing steps are deleted, saving huge amounts of money.

Thus.....Toyota is going to wind up "spending a dollar to save a dime".

N!

It's also more precise control of the throttle by the computers, which control the entire damn car. Traction control, stability control, and cruise control all require some form of throttle manipulation, which was previously via some sort of actuator and cable. They can also use it for features such as launch control, better coordination between transmission shifting and throttle, etc. In theory it's all more precise because the same computer is coordinating everything. Except for some trucks, you'll be hard pressed to find any new car that isn't drive by wire.

Personally I prefer my FJ80, it has an ECU for the fuel injection and that's it! Easy to fix, but there's not much to break.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

It's also more precise control of the throttle by the computers, which control the entire damn car. Traction control, stability control, and cruise control all require some form of throttle manipulation, which was previously via some sort of actuator and cable. They can also use it for features such as launch control, better coordination between transmission shifting and throttle, etc. In theory it's all more precise because the same computer is coordinating everything. Except for some trucks, you'll be hard pressed to find any new car that isn't drive by wire.

innerestin' but seems all of these things could be accomplished with brack actuation and spark manipulation.

[CurtEgerer]

Delorenzo wrote this before the sales halt. Toyota is not the same Toyota of years past.

Autoextremist: Three Troubled Brands

Part of it:

.............. In Toyota’s case, their relentless obsession to be the biggest, baddest car company on the planet has cost them dearly. Too many plants were built, which led to the company having too much capacity on hand, and in the process of doing that they took their collective eyes off of the ball, which led to an undeniable slip in quality, heretofore their Holy Grail, and the principle raison d’etre for the company. And remember, all of this was undertaken in the quest to unseat General Motors as the world’s biggest automaker. Sounds wildly misguided and painfully irrelevant right about now, doesn’t it?

But there’s more to Toyota’s slide than the above-mentioned laundry list of reasons. The fact of the matter is that the company that thrived on being the quiet but strong and formidable No. 2 absolutely sucks at being No. 1. They’re so bad at it in fact that they’ve completely lost their mojo.

In the old days Toyota could get by with their blandtastic transportation devices because they smugly knew that their customers would go along to get along with that style of detached motoring, because their customers also knew that nothing went wrong with their vehicles, ever. And that was plenty good enough.

Now in the midst of a relentless series of recalls, that ol’ Toyota quality magic has been blown to smithereens, and their reputation is in tatters. And amazingly enough consumers have quickly gotten the message that there are other automakers out there delivering the kind of quality numbers that used to be exclusively associated with Toyota.

And now that this has happened, Toyota has begun questioning everything they do with the kind of public hand-wringing that is painful to watch, because it’s clear they don’t really get it, no matter how well-intentioned their public self-flagellation is.

Do they make bland vehicles? Absolutely. And that didn’t used to be a problem. But in today’s cutthroat market it is a huge problem for Toyota because to the consumer if the quality is comparable, then all things being equal they will naturally gravitate toward style and appealing design, and Toyota is nowhere when it comes to those factors. As in not even close. ............

................... In the Aftermath of the Detroit Auto Show what struck me the most was that three brands – BMW, Honda and Toyota – brands that had formerly had their proverbial **** together, had all gotten completely off track, displaying in varying degrees an ugly combination of delusional and wrong-headed thinking and utter cluelessness that left me with the stark realization that they had completely forgotten what they stood for, and had no idea what to do or where to go next..

[onewhippedpuppy]

I remember a short time back reading a piece from Toyota's CEO admitting that they had lost their all-consuming focus on quality, and that the company was striving to recover that lost magic. They still make great cars, but there's some validity in the statement that others have caught up.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I remember a short time back reading a piece from Toyota's CEO admitting that they had lost their all-consuming focus on quality, and that the company was striving to recover that lost magic. They still make great cars, but there's some validity in the statement that others have caught up.

It's not just that others have caught up, but that Toyota has slipped, as Matt Delorenzo's article suggests.