I would have plucked his eyes out!!!

You did the right thing Shaun.

No matter who you are there is always someone badder who will kick your azz if you go around starting stuff.

I know many of you here are the "touch me and it is on" type of guys... different strokes, if that works for you fine.

I grew up in Los Angeles... if I jumped everyone who "dissed" me I would be stabbed/shot/dead via some crack head/gangster long before now.

Discretion is the better part of valor... at least for me.

I cannot imagine the urban, 'hood environment. I grew up in a small logging town in the middle of nowhere. There wasn't much to do, so we tended to have fistfights for fun. No guns, no knives. And yeah, it was kinda fun.

I can remember wishing, many times, that GW Bush had attended my high school. The world would have never seen that arrogant smirk.

Snipe.... you should try moving?

The hood don't let you move.

me too. Port Alberni on Vancouver Island. Red Neck logging town. there were some tuff buggers in that small town. The place I live now is about half the size.

lol

fixed it for you

This could be a candidate for the post of the decade.

I was just thinking the same thing.

Shaun,

Let's take the overdose of testosterone out of this discussion for a minute...you boys who wanna beat the **** out this douchebag can all come back later ;).

Yes, my initial reaction would have been to fight back and do it dirty - being female I have no reason to "fight like a man" and frankly it's not as effective as some of the moves I've had to use in the past :p. (Believe it or not my Daddy taught me well - he fought like a man but taught me how to fight like an enraged female). But why sink to the douchbag's level? That's what he wanted no doubt and Shaun WON just by not retaliating.

Look at the big picture. Shaun has a business to run and a collection to finish. He's under pressure to get the job done and dealing with the fallout of taking this guy down would put him in a lose-lose situation. I think he did the right thing given the circumstances.

Shaun; what are your obligations to this temp? Does she ordinarily do a good/great job or is she dispensable? Is this the first time she hasn't performed as she should in the workplace and can you just fire her without warning given she's a temp or do you have to go through the 3 written warnings garbage we have to down here? Do you really need her with her baggage slowing you down? If you can dispense with her easily I would suggest you do it.

HOW DARE her boyfriend demand you account to HIM about her hours (that would have incensed me). A harsh as it is, you are not her guardian, mother etc and her problems outside the workplace can't come to work with her. She has to deal with that, not you. Although maybe you could at least suggest she seek some help with her situation - but for God's sake don't get involved in it as her problems will then become yours by default.

FWIW I think you handled this whole situation like a MAN. You got the better of this idiot in a lot of ways. Just make sure your premises are secured when you're not there and call that cop and ask him to have the patrols drive by to check everything is OK overnight etc. I wouldn't put it past this guy to take his revenge on you in other ways...so be aware.

I agree with the police report for the record.

Anyone touches me or my family and they get the "full treatment" right away. They don't get a second chance to learn.

I would carry for awhile or have access to Shawn.

You back in town?

You're so sure it's 'clear cut' self defense?

So what happens when the only witness is the girlfriend, who seems to be terrified of him? Now the guy and his girl both say Shaun started it. Oops. Not so clear cut anymore.

Even if she doesn't lie... if you push somebody down some stairs and accidently cause more harm than intended, you could find yourself in a world of hurt legally. A soft touching of the head isn't likely to justify you paralyzing somebody. Being self defense isn't good enough. You have to be able to convince a jury it's self defense.

If nothing else, a physical altercation would have led to Shaun spending the rest of his day talking to the cops instead of working to meet his deadline. Then his business suffers just so he can feel good knowing he didn't take any crap.

Or, maybe he decides to take a swing and this unstable individual pulls a knife. Now Shauns guts are on the floor, but at least he stood up for himself, right?

The guy deserved to get beat up, but that doesn't make beating him up the right thing to do.

Meekness... having power but chosing not to use it.

See, we can't do that down here - "carry" I mean. Our gun laws are so, so tight. You get caught with a weapon in a situation like this; even if you hold a longarm or handgun licence and the weapon is registered; even if it's not loaded - you are GONE!!! Can't even have your weapons out of their approved safe unless you are about to use them for their registered intent. We just don't have this option unfortunately...although my District Firearms Officer (yes you get one of those when you hold a licence and have registered guns) once said to me that if I had recurring problems with asshat customers that maybe I should just keep my guns out on my desk for constant cleaning lol! He was a good dude - great cop who was/is a sporting shooter and gave me a whole lot of good advice and help when I still had all my rifles etc.

Shaun did the right thing. The temp & bf have nothing to loose and lots to gain if Shaun took the bait and started to fight. He called the cops and documented the assault (no battery took place). This way, if the bf comes back he can use what ever force he feels necessary to defend himself and the law will be on his side (to some extent).

Scenario one: Shaun kicks the bf down the stairs. Feels ten feet tall and bullet proof. Bf is laying at a heap at bottom of the stairs, moaning. Temp is crying and screaming. Someone calls the cops. They show up and ask what happened. Shaun says "they came in demanding money and he put is head close to mine, so I kicked his ass". Temp says "he owes me money and my bf came with me because I'm afraid of him".

Bf is now being loaded on a stretcher being taken hospital. Shaun is now arrested for assault and battery (maybe more depending on the bf's injury's) as he hasn't a mark on him from the bf and the only witness is the temp.

Now Shaun is late getting his spring line ready and might miss some appointments/shows because he is posting bail, hiring a lawyer to defend himself, now under a lot of stress because of this. So he looses out on some sales. His sales managers are now not happy with him and he looses some product lines. (that is, I'm assuming he's a independent sales rep instead of a factory rep where he would just get fired).

Meanwhile Bf is in hospital with a sobbing temp is at his side.

Fast forward: 6-9 months later...Shaun is now is court sitting with his lawyer (who he had to pay by selling his 911 cause he's been trying to find other work) and the Bf (wearing a big white foam collar around his neck) is being represented by a member of the firm Dewey, Scrum and Howe who is suing Shaun for a Billion $'s for lost wages he was going to be getting by doing computer design work and emotional stress.

Being ten feet tall and bullet proof is nice until you get a little older and realize there are people out there who are 11' tall. Then it's time to protect your ass(ets) and that's what the law is about.

+1 gwn7...

hehe Lisa. We can take a class here and get a CWP and it is good in many states around here. I also see some guys wearing their piece where you can see it. Many businesses and all government building don't allow weapons at all.

I lived in So. Cal. for 25 years and grew up with guns but California didn't seem to be in line with the NRA....haha

GWN7 you have the name of the legal firm wrong. It's Dewey Cheatum & How.

other than that your post is +100

The other guy assaulted him unprovoked. At that point it is legal self defense.

You are DISproving your own point!

This is not the UK. In the US you have the legal right to answer force with force.
Even cowards are allowed to fight back...

And seriously, what are they going to get from him if they do sue? T-shirts? LOL...

The other guy assaulted him unprovoked. At that point it is legal self defense.

Man, some of you are as inattentive as you are cowardly...

All acting like a biitch is going to do is encourage the other guy. This thread is amazing. Any thug could basically torment any of you and you wouldn't do anything for fear of getting sued or locked up over night.

Sheep.

You're not getting it.

He needs to be able to prove it.

Sniper

Maybe if you owned a brick and mortar business you'd have a different perspective. Yeah, it's easy to say "I'd kick his ass" until the uber-liberal cops and judges and juries in Boston/Cambridge get involved. Shaun had a duty to protect himself and his business in that order. As you know "Payback is a Medivac". Cover himself first, warn the employee not to bring the asshat around ever again if she wants to keep her job, file police report, maybe get a restraining order. THEN call Guido, if it persists. You seem to forget, juries tend to like to transfer money from those who have it, or some money (Shaun) to asshats who don't have much. Without a video tape, it's a "he said/he said" thing.

Double Post

As Dueller and other Esq's here will tell you guilt or innocence has nothing to do with whether you did it or not. And court proceedings are $$$$$$ whether you win or lose. Me personally, I'd have like to push him down the stairs, but then he breaks his neck, becomes a quadrapalegic and the jury seeing him paralyzed gives him all Shaun's worldly possessions, so who wins?

C'mon snipe,

This douchebag tried to intimidate Shaun with some choice language and a soft head butt...all with the only witness being his gf downstairs. Now if Shaun had retaliated he would have to prove reasonable grounds surely? And use reasonable force to 'defend' himself? So, maybe a soft head butt back; eh? Then the guy falls down the stairs, ends up a quad and the whole legal merry go round starts and Shaun loses what he's worked so hard to get. So, he'll feel like the MAN you think he should feel like for a little while....until the vulture-lawyers circle and then he's made to suffer for a long time financially and emotionally. It's just not a WIN; don't you see?

As for any thug being able to torment any of us and just get away with it? It's all about degrees...if some bastard tried to seriously harm me or more importantly one of 'mine' they would definitely get what was coming to them and then some. There is a point where you don't care about getting sued or spending some time in lock-up; that point is when your life is threatened or your kids are in serious danger...for me anyway. Particularly if anyone hurts my kids; they will be toast if I get even half a chance. That is when I would lose it...but not before.

Snipe - To paraphrase Janis Joplin: "Freedom (& retaliation) is just another word for nothing left to lose". Me and Bobby Mcgee

You may have 'nothing left to lose' but Shaun certainly does!

Best,
Tom

Reconstitution of events:
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Is the GF a hottie? LOL

Scenario Two: Local Leos get a call for assault in progress. They show up and Fire/Paramedics are treating two males at the bottom of a stairwell. There is a woman crying standing there.

They ask her what happened. She says "My boyfriend was talking to my boss about money I was owed and they got really close and then my boss hit him which started the fight and they fell down the stairs.

Two ambulances show up and both males are C spine immobilized. The various broken arms/legs are splinted and one of the males is rushed to the hospital because he's coughing blood) from possible punctured lung.

The Leos ride in the ambulance with each of the males. The Officer says "What happened?" The male says "he hit me, so I hit him back". The officer makes note of this in his note book. The other officer in the other ambulance says "What happened?" The other male says "He hit me, so I hit him back" and the officer makes note of this in his note book.

They compare notes at the hospital...... and as the only other statement is from the Gf they turn the whole thing over to the local DA. Who may charge both of them with felony assault due to the nature of there injury's or do nothing as there isn't a independent witness.

Now both males are in the hospital for two months. (See hospital thread for medical costs) :)

Bf doesn't care. He's getting 3 squares a day and free drugs. And a very nice lawyer from Dewey Cheatum & How (thanks GH85Carrera for the correction) :) has visited him.

Shaun does (see Scenario one) for his lost costs.

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................................

Scenario Three: m21sniper is replaced with Shaun

Leos get a call for shots fired. They arrive to find a woman crying and screaming at the bottom of the stairs and a male at the top of the stairs with two holes in him. He's dead. They disarm m21sniper and take his statement. "He head butted me, so I defended myself"

Then make note that there isn't a mark on m21sniper.

When the Gf calms down they take her statement. She says "My boyfriend was talking to my boss about money I was owed and they got really close and then my boss shot him"

m21sniper is then charged with manslaughter. Which after a long legal battle being represented by Dewey Cheatum & How he gets off the charges. (see I'm pulling for you) :)

But he's bankrupt from paying the bill from Dewey Cheatum & How and his spoons were all confiscated while the trial went on and not stored properly and have rusted. Green ammo :(

.................................................. .................................................. ..............................................

Scenario four: Shaun does what he did and no one looses. He mails the temp a cheque for the $12 he owes her and includes a note that says "Thanks, but your services are no longer needed." Then goes on with his life.

.................................................. .................................................. ................................................

And m21sniper the point you missed is that there was no witnesses to the alleged assault. The only other person there was the temp and I'm sure she would back up what ever her Bf said, so Shaun would be screwed.

Couple of other things... typing in big bold letters is like shouting in a argument, it doesn't prove your right, it just proves that you can shout.

About calling me "inattentive", "cowardly" or a "sheep" would be like me saying you couldn't hit the barn door with a spoon unless you threw it and we all know that isn't true. :)

Daaaaammmmnnnnnn! I just took a mouthful of coffee before reading this bit... now I have to clean up my desk...at least I missed the more important papers on there!

The green ammo got me...:D

How do you guys make your letters so big?

Like this?

When you pull up the text box by hitting reply, there is a choice for fonts and a choice for size (at the top of the box under where it says message). And you can change colour too... does this make sense for you Jeff? Can't do it by using quick reply box though - you have to use 'post reply' option.

Philly is different, but sniper has valid points which aren't dictated by locale, some of which are well received on my end. One of my family members engages in the same line of work as sniper, and has the same outlook, loads up on fire arms, etc.., but would get his a$s whipped or killed given several scenarios. He's a smart little sob, all 5'6, knows how to wrestle and could probably pistol whip Sniper with his own gun.

State laws are about the only thing keeping him from doing something drastic, and is the reason for constantly making calculated moves.

Those in Sniper's business have to put up with a lot when the day is done, more than most ever will in a day. Avoiding heated confrontation at all costs can determine whether or not you work tomorrow in certain areas here, and I'm pretty sure it means everywhere in Snipe's jurisdiction.

Why do we still not have pictures of the temp???

this, or pepper spray if you not so inclined. Keep your eyes open and a weapon handy. Be aware, trade cars with a friend who works somewhere else for a while, etc, etc.
,
No, she brings too much baggage, temp is now a former employee

Shaun you did the right thing, far too much to lose, nothing to gain by kicking him down the stairs, plenty to lose.

Billy, you are just wrong, plain and simple. No way that girl tells the truth, making Shaun the instigator, and a soon to be convicted felon, former small business owner.

Forgive and forget...
 

exactly. I've never been in a single fight and I have no idea how you'd even get into one.

Shaun, you did the smart thing. I would still be careful, though. Not, just from an assualt from the bf, but the girl. She herself may be the instigator. You know, telling the bf she is working OT while having other activities. This may be why he wanted an accounting of her hours. & most of us men do stupid things in these situations. Instead of throwing away the BIC that won't light, we treat it like a Zippo. Another she may be setting you up for sex harrassment charges. Be careful.

Sniper, Think like the infantryman you are, instead of a kid who's been called a name. You have a mission, just like Shaun's mission to meet his deadline. Let's say yours is to lead your squad to a hill top & secure an LZ for a signal outfit to come in & setup a radio relay. In route you're engaged by a hostile unit. If it's an ambush with heavy fire you have to go against it with everything you have. But, the bf didn't bust in swinging at Shaun. If it's a light engagement you return fire take a defensive position & force the enemy to withdraw then continue to your objective. This is what Shaun did, forced the bf to leave so he could get back to work & meet his deadline. Your repo work is different, objective is held by enemy, & requires different tactics.

Best resume I've ever seen for that type of position :D.

Exactly. There are certain situations in life that are just guaranteed losers. I'm glad that the situation did not turn out worse but a little common sense is in order:

Dollars to donuts, he thinks that you're doinking his GF. Were you? You left that out. Homie wants to get a job at the baby shirt factory and see what's goin' on. You tell him, "I don't think we'd get along." What playbook did that one come out of?? What's wrong with, "I'll let you know" ? The tried and true brush-off used since the cavemen days? Jeezus...

THEN, you physically crowd him or "escort" him to the door? With no intention (or balls) for a physical fight? WTF playbook does that come out of? Even I would not have done that. Just sit at your desk, (or knitting table/loom/whatever), and ask him to leave. If you'd followed common sense and not said something biitch-like first, it would never have gotten to this stage. He'd just be leaving now.

The *head-push* thing was him wanting to break you in half but the "I don't want to go (back) to prison urge fighting with what was in his balls. I've been there. Once he touched you, though, it's simple assault w/ no witnesses from the sound of things. Thank god he did not go completely USPS on you, it sounds like he hates you bigtime.

Is he a credible threat? Depends on how cowardly he is. The bigger the coward, the more you have to worry. Those are the guys who wind up on the 6 o' clock news, generally.

Take a common sense class at your local community college, if there is such a thing before something really bad happens. And yes, you were right to make a police report. :cool:

Retrospectively looking back with hindsight I guess you did well by holding back. Who knows, it might have even been a set up to get you to hit him, with only one witness, the girl, I guess you did the right thing. But, like speeder says.
And, what can I say, I never do the right thing.