Engineered vs Laminate floor?

[JavaBrewer]

Floating vs Glue - floating is cheaper and easier to install no doubt. You also save on floor prep - just clean off the big lumps and if so inclined vacuum the floor. Then lay down the padding and start the wood. There are engineered wood products that have a click/lock T&G system - like many laminate products. Super fast and easy install.

HOWEVER - and this is strictly a matter of personal taste - you have to walk on the floor. I have always hated a floating wood floor. I hate the way they feel under my feet and hate the way they sound when walking on them. To the casual observer they will appear to be a laminate product. Bottom line they feel cheap - YMMV.

Go to a flooring center that has all of these products installed for you to experience. Honestly weigh out the pros and cons of the product and costs. The wife and I agonized for months over our choice of wood (colors, wood type, style, cost) before making our decision. You can bring store samples home to compare. One thing we didn't agonize over was the installation method - glue down all the way.

[911pcars]

Look for engineered wood with some substantial thickness. It'll be more stable and perhaps more wood thickness for later refinishing. I've seen engineered wood products from 3/8" to 9/16" thick.

FWIW, I purchased from here: Academy Floor Supply | Discount Hardwood Flooring | Hardwood Floor Repair | Flooring Supplies

Sherwood

[rnln]

Just spent almost all day to look and talk about wood floor. I was stepping up from laminate to engineer after looking more, and knowing more about them. Got home and did some more research and found that, I can try a little more to get solid wood. There are solid wood cost only around $0.50 more than the engineer wood we chose.

Anyone know what is the advantage/disadvantage of solid vs engineer wood? beside wood can be grind down and repolished more.

PS: the pro recommended glue down all the time for better feeling when stepping on them. On concrete, they use glue premix with vapor barrier.

[Scuba Steve]

To be honest, I've never heard of a 3/4" solid whose manufacturer will recommend or approve a glue down installation on concrete. May have seen a 5/8" product or two out there that will though, but you lose some of your wear layer advantage with that. FWIW with a solid your wear layer is 1/4" before you start to sand into the tongue. You can get that with a high quality engineered too.

[Mark Henry]

In my concrete floor basement we chose 12mm laminate and we used FM Delta vapor barrier, then the regular foam and laminate. By myself I did 1000sq/ft in just over a day. Nice warm floors and the FM only added 1/4".
Only downside I've seen so far is on some of the low spots if you jump like a kid you can hear and feel the delta.

Delta FM for Floors

[rnln]

Oh no, one problem after another.
I went out and got some engineer, then changed to solid Mahagony and agreed with the installer to nail on second floor, and glue to the concrete on the first floor. The glue is premix with vapor barrier. He said he glue solid to concrete all the time and there is no problem. If there is any problem, glue manufacture will take care of it.
Now, I am almost give up. There is always a problem. Hate to use different types of wood in the house.
Quests:
What sort of problem with glue solid wood to concrete?
Has anyone glue solid to concrete? Any problem? Please share.

Originally Posted by Scuba Steve

To be honest, I've never heard of a 3/4" solid whose manufacturer will recommend or approve a glue down installation on concrete. May have seen a 5/8" product or two out there that will though, but you lose some of your wear layer advantage with that. FWIW with a solid your wear layer is 1/4" before you start to sand into the tongue. You can get that with a high quality engineered too.

[rnln]

Alright, after a bunch of questions and searches, I think I got a list to keep in mind.

- Solid wood: can not be installed directly into concrete because concrete has moisture.
- Engineer wood: can be glued directly onto concrete if moisture is low. If moisture is high, don't glue.
- Solid wood and engineer wood need a subfloor between concrete and the wood flooring. Best to do is glueing/nailing ply wood to floor, then nail the wood flooring on the ply wood. This is costly.
- Laminate can be float on concrete floor. Lay a thin foam layer between concrete and the laminate wood and you are ok. Why Laminate can stand moisture? Because it is floating?
- Bamboo, better than wood. No further information yet.

question: since laminate is 100% safe on concrete (with moisture) because it's is floating. Is clicking/floating engineer wood 100% safe with only a thin foam layer just like installing laminate?

[Mark Henry]

Originally Posted by rnln

- Laminate can be float on concrete floor. Lay a thin foam layer between concrete and the laminate wood and you are ok. Why Laminate can stand moisture? Because it is floating?
- Bamboo, better than wood. No further information yet.

question: since laminate is 100% safe on concrete (with moisture) because it's is floating. Is clicking/floating engineer wood 100% safe with only a thin foam layer just like installing laminate?

No, laminate must have a vapor barrier (VB) not just the cheap foam underlay, which is meant only for wood subfloors.

The less expensive types of VB underlay is just a foam with a plastic backing. Delta FM, the stuff I used, is a corrugated solid plastic sheet that I then used proper VB tape (tuck tape) to seal all the seams, then you put the cheap foam underlay on top of it and last your laminate. The Delta leaves a small air gap so the moisture can slowly evaporate. I'm sure it's good for floating engineered wood floors as well, but I never checked that out.

Laminate flooring is nothing more than pressed cardboard or a more moisture resistant MDF. With no proper VB moisture will eventually damage it.

I think the only thing better with bamboo is it's a renewable resource (can be grown like a crop) so the greenies like it.

[Scuba Steve]

Originally Posted by rnln

Quests:
What sort of problem with glue solid wood to concrete?
Has anyone glue solid to concrete? Any problem? Please share.

This should answer a lot of your questions:

Glue Down Hardwood Floors - What's Involved? How? Photos

[red-beard]

Steve and the rest of you guys:

Thanks for all of the info.

I think I'm prepared now and I'm going to be going with floated laminate in the office areas, and high value engineered floor, glued to concrete in the dining room, bedroom and closets.

Last question for me: What are the right questions to ask to evaluate an installer?

[Scuba Steve]

I DIY'd so I'm making this up based on the funner parts of the install. Also assuming you know how to evaluate the different products so no questions about that.

- How flat do they get the floor down to? (+/- X in per 8 foot radius is the type of answer they'll give). Important in order to prevent highs/lows/squeaking. They'll grind high spots and/or fill low ones with self-leveling compound. Acceptable +/- values and radius will be given by the manufacturer in their instructions.

- How do they test for slab moisture? I've seen meters, but 2'x2' squares of plastic taped to the slab in various places can also tell. Pull 'em up after a couple of days and if the concrete is a different color underneath or you see condensation, you've got problems.

- What kind of glue do they use? Important b/c if you have warranty issues the manufacturer will ask. Wrong kind of glue or unapproved installer = no warranty.

- If you're not a fan of quarter round or shoe molding, figure that stuff out now. We decided to remove / repaint / reinstall the baseboards so that they sat on top of the wood rather than leave them in (would've been too low) and cover the gap with quarter round. It came out looking much cleaner that way IMO. In any case it's a perfect opportunity to clean up and refresh your baseboards.

One more thing. If at all possible, do all your moisture and demo work when it's raining. If it's not raining, spray the crap out of the side of the house with a garden hose up to the second floor. I found three leaks that way - stuff you wouldn't have noticed for 50 years with the carpet in there, but that was obvious when raining and would've ruined the wood in the area if not corrected. One was a hairline crack in the mortar between two bricks in a windowsill upstairs (leaking down to the 1st floor). The second at the bottom of the first row of brick around the patio (built in part of the slab / exposed aggregate. Should've sealed below the 1st row of brick instead of mortaring it). The third was some failed flashing on the chimney. House is only 18 years old and well built, but the problems were invisible before the carpet was removed.

[glewis80SC]

We went through all this about a year ago, decided on engineered glued to concrete subfloor our neighbor floated his and we didn't care for the feel, kind of hollow sounding. Went with product from Alston, local for me, good product with good warranty. We are a busy family of 5 so we went with a distressed look and darker Walnut color we also had alternating size pieces 3 1/2" and 5" very happy with the look.
That being said the darker color shows dirt and dust more so to keep looking nice sweeping and vacuming more often is required, get the hardwood floor cleaner BONA it works great, spray on wipe off put felt covers on any furniture that touches the floor.
Our installer included removal of old carpet and demo of small tile areas in the the install, they did the demo and sealed the concrete on day one and the next two was the install. My two boys and I did the base board and quarter round, that was fun I didn't know there was a 22.5 degree miter cut but there is.
It is my understanding that the concrete has to be sealed before the glue can go down, that prevents any moisture problems. I'm glad we had a pro do the install the glue get everywhere and it take a team to keep it from getting out of hand, and it was done in three days it would have taken me a lot longer.

[Scuba Steve]

The sealing kind of depends... in Houston, especially if the slab isn't super elevated there's a good chance he'll have to.

[red-beard]

I'm thinking of demo myself. I'm going to have to move the furniture, remove the closet parts, etc any. How much more work can it be to pull the carpets.

I was going to get the concrete sealed ANYWAY, since we're in Houston. Is there anything else needed if we find moisture?

[RWebb]

James - does TX have any sort of database on contractors? Oregon does & my 1st filter is to see:

1. how long have they been in biz?

2. do they have any complaints against them?

beyond that - word of mouth from people who are somewhat critical; and/or ask for a list of customers (you'll only get happy ones of course)

re moisture problems:
find an engineer in your area & buy them lunch - maybe someone from college?
dunno if they'd be a structural eng. for slab issues or not; here we have basements yet lots of water -- people dig trenches around the house and pour in gravel for a drainage path + spray a sealant outside the stem wall; the the old houses are routinely jacked up for a new fnd.

I do know that in Baton Rouge, the slabs always cracked after about 20 years...

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by red-beard

I'm thinking of demo myself. I'm going to have to move the furniture, remove the closet parts, etc any. How much more work can it be to pull the carpets.

I was going to get the concrete sealed ANYWAY, since we're in Houston. Is there anything else needed if we find moisture?

Don't forget about labor to remove the tack strips and the nails that remain in the concrete.

Sherwood

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by RWebb

James - does TX have any sort of database on contractors? Oregon does & my 1st filter is to see:

1. how long have they been in biz?

2. do they have any complaints against them?

beyond that - word of mouth from people who are somewhat critical; and/or ask for a list of customers (you'll only get happy ones of course)

Not that I'm aware. But I'm going to look around a bit.

Originally Posted by RWebb

re moisture problems:
find an engineer in your area & buy them lunch - maybe someone from college?
dunno if they'd be a structural eng. for slab issues or not; here we have basements yet lots of water -- people dig trenches around the house and pour in gravel for a drainage path + spray a sealant outside the stem wall; the the old houses are routinely jacked up for a new fnd.

I do know that in Baton Rouge, the slabs always cracked after about 20 years...

They built our houses above street level and drain the back yard. When I had the pool put in, I made sure they setup good drainage against the house.

[McLovin]

can an engineered wood floor be sanded down and refinished?

[RWebb]

yes - a few times depending on thickness

[Scuba Steve]

I'm thinking of demo myself. I'm going to have to move the furniture, remove the closet parts, etc any. How much more work can it be to pull the carpets.



I was going to get the concrete sealed ANYWAY, since we're in Houston. Is there anything else needed if we find moisture?

That's not a bad idea. Carpets came right up. You'll figure out where the seams are, and they will come apart there. Try and roll as you remove if at all possible. It'll be easier to haul off that way. My wife and I did about 600 sq ft in maybe 2 hours including the padding.

Tack strips were not an issue. A pry bar or wrecking hammer can take care of any nails left behind. No problem. Put bar under nail with/without tack strip remaining and step on the other end of the bar. Pop comes the nail. For baseboards cut the caulk against the wall with a utility knife, slide a putty knife between the baseboard and wall to protect the Sheetrock, and pry off carefully with your tool of choice.

Give it one day in a weekend and you'll be done unless you have a mountain of stuff. 600-800 sq ft is very doable if you have a helper.