Question About De-Tuning CAT Standby Generators

[944Larry]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

The p traps are around $12,000 each.

I was wrong, they are Cummins and John Deere.

Someone at the organization (it's a very small elementary school district) who doesn't know anything about generators asked Cummins to do something, and they offered to sell them 4 $12,000 load banks and 4 p-traps, the load banks do nothing to reduce HP, and they were an additional $12,500 each.

Larry: here is the info from the descriptions on the Air Permits:

Cummins Model No. 4BTA3.9-G5, four cyl. 99 BHP, turbocharged, after cooled No. Serial No. at this time.

Cummins MModel 4BT3 3-G2 Serial No. 68011959 82 BHP

John Deere 4 cyl tubrocharged Model No. 4045TF150 110 BHP No Serial No.

Cummins Model No. 4Bt3.9-G4 Serial No. L00185069 4 cyl turbocharged 102 BHP

I will contact Cummins, but in looking at the permits I see three of them would have to have their BHP reduced by 50% or so. That may not be obtainable. Since I don't know generators, as Larry said some of them run 30,000 PSI on the injection which to me is amazing. I just want to be able to talk to Cummins intelligently about options.

My understanding is that any modifications to get under 50 BHP must be "real, quantifiable and permanent". John Walker, you are correct in that they look at the model and what the State and local agency will require and that is generally it, unless you can demonstrate a real, permanent drop in BHP.

Hugh-I'm sorry but I don't have any contacts at Cummins or John Deere. They are both excellent engines with great product support and no doubt in my mind would bend over backwards to help you. Good luck in your search!!!

[Hugh R]

Thanks very much Larry! I appreciate the generous offer, I was told they were CAT until I actually go my hands on the permits to operate.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Quote from Cummins Cal Pacific LLC is $47,179.49 for four DCL International Mine-X Sootfilters.

It's a CA requirement for standby generators within 100 meters of a K-12 school (SCAQMD Rule 1470). Since these are schools, they have to comply with the rule.

My wife is the purchasing manager for the school district and I'm trying to help them out gratis

I've given them several suggestions including selling them outside of CA and buy gasoline ones under 50 HP (exempt from permitting).

Don't know about exhaust filters on diesel trucks other than that they are requiring older ones to be phased out in CA and replaced with much cleaner ones. Going the same way with cargo ships.

I think someone is trying to screw you guys in California. That price is crazy. As I said, I checked the LIST price for one for my Truck, and International with a 4.6 liter, 350 hp (262 kW) engine. And it was $1500. I can't believe there isn't something for less money.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by red-beard

I think someone is trying to screw you guys in California. That price is crazy. As I said, I checked the LIST price for one for my Truck, and International with a 4.6 liter, 350 hp (262 kW) engine. And it was $1500. I can't believe there isn't something for less money.

Seriously.

That price is outrageous.

Don't know if you can but you'd think it would be cheaper to relocate them 100 meters.

[Hugh R]

Problem is that they'd still be on school property. Yeah its crazy and the p-traps have to be State-Certified. Also what is stupid is that the State of CA over estimated the carcinogenic potential from diesel particulate by something like 400% and passed lots and lots of air regulations before they realized their mistake, but are they re-writing the regs? Hell no. In a past life, I did air pollution permitting for lots of equipment.

[stomachmonkey]

Ah, I misunderstood.

They need to be 100 meters from the school property line and not just the physical building.

[Jim Bremner]

If I come up with a simple solution can I get a reward!




Look at a dyno chart, if it makes 49.9 hp at 2,137 rpm just limit the FRICKEN RPM

[A930Rocket]

Seems like a silly rule, since they would be used in an emergency, and in that case, would school be open or open for long?

Doing a search for particulate filters, it seems like a heavy duty catalyst/filter and simple to retrofit on a generator, but maybe I'm I'm just seeing small engine stuff?

Cummins Emission Solutions

http://cumminsemissionsolutions.com/pdfs/4973751%20DPF.pdf

tier_4_info_CPF_

[Hugh R]

Jim, can't limit the RPM, a generator like this spins at a constant RPM and the engine works harder as load increases.

The generators are for a few lights, computers, etc. School would not stay in session. The p-traps have to be state certified for that engine class, can't just bolt on one from Pep Boys.

[James Brown]

what about making them mobile. I know there is a lot to do that but most MOBILE power plants are exempt from that reg. put the trailer on a pad and plug it in when needed.

[Jesset100]

Sell the engines and get smaller ones.

[Grog]

Diesels don't have carbs, throttle plates or any kind of air intake control. engine speed and HP is controlled by fuel delivery.

generators maintain a constant speed, usually 3600 rpm to maintain 60 cycles (hz) per second frequency output. If you could electronically limit the generator power output to equal less than 50hp that could work. Limiter would control fuel for combustion.

[Jim Bremner]

Originally Posted by James Brown

what about making them mobile. I know there is a lot to do that but most MOBILE power plants are exempt from that reg. put the trailer on a pad and plug it in when needed.

HA-HA this is the best answer, remove the problem from the problem

[Bob's Flat-Six]

Those engines have a tag / sticker on them stating their HP from the Mfg. and if the sticker is not legible or removed it's a fine.

To my knowledge only a 2008 or newer diesel engine w/ particulate traps already on them from the factory will get you an OK from CARB. But even they will be fazed out in several more years, 15 years or so ?

Otherwise you will need to have particulatee traps installed on the 5 year old engines. You might be able to buy some time by either buying "one" new generator 2008 or newer. ie one new cleaner burning generator updates the fleet a bit buying time for the others.
And or you might not have to do all the generators at once to comply. Put a P. Trap on one a year might get you buy with CARB.


Check with CARB on what you need to do.

I won't be able to register my 2001 KW in this state in January 1st 2014.
How would you like to have that hanging over your head in a down construction economy ? I wish I could put a $15K particulate trap on it to comply but it's too old of an engine. It has to be 04 or newer to comply with an added particulate trap as the regulations keep getting stricter as time goes by.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Grog

Diesels don't have carbs, throttle plates or any kind of air intake control. engine speed and HP is controlled by fuel delivery.

generators maintain a constant speed, usually 3600 rpm to maintain 60 cycles (hz) per second frequency output. If you could electronically limit the generator power output to equal less than 50hp that could work. Limiter would control fuel for combustion.

Very Interesting. Should I remove the throttle body from my truck?

[turbo6bar]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Very Interesting. Should I remove the throttle body from my truck?

On non-high tech diesels, there is no throttle body. I searched, and can only figure yours is for emissions. I doubt it's for power or efficiency.

[Grog]

Are you sure it's a throttle body and controls air flow? could be a air flow sensor, or intake air heater.

[Jim Bremner]

f'em

burn BIO-Fuel!

[oldE]

Hugh,

I think you should give up on the idea of limiting power output. The generators were likely speced for a particular load. Not much point on saving a few thousand by down-rating your generators then having a pile of expensive equipment burn out when the power fails and the back-up can't handle the load.

Good luck.
Les

[Hugh R]

Thanks for all the input guys. Mobile presents an interesting solution, but they're located at schools for a power failure, and the air pollution agency won't waive the requirement if they have wheels. Bob, the rule doesn't allow for averaging of emissions between newer and older units. The power issue is a problem, but they can buy all the less than 50 HP generators that they want and non will require a permit or p-trap. Its stupid, they can have ten 45 HP generators hooked together and no permit or p-traps, but one 51 HP generator is fully regulated.