Let's talk Tesla again.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Like I said Eric, I wasn't referring to the Volt. While I think the Volt still doesn't make sense from an ROI standpoint, it is a cool piece of technology and a much easier concept for the general public to swallow. With no range concerns you could buy one and use it as your only car, unlike the electric only options.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Like I said Eric, I wasn't referring to the Volt. While I think the Volt still doesn't make sense from an ROI standpoint, it is a cool piece of technology and a much easier concept for the general public to swallow. With no range concerns you could buy one and use it as your only car, unlike the electric only options.

If you removed or disconnected the Volt's ICE (gas engine) you could still feel comfortable driving the EPA rated/stated range of 35.0 miles based on Edmunds long-term average of 38.4 miles. That was your initial point. So it is possible that Tesla, Toyota, Nissan, and others would perform similarly. In other words, the range claims may not be smoke and mirrors. As we've all read before, 40 miles range would cover 75% of Americans' daily driving/commuting. If the big-daddy 85KwH Tesla S can do 300+ miles, that's certainly as much as most cars with gas tanks.

As for quoting 0-60 times AND still getting stated range estimates.... are you freaking kidding!!?? Guess the range of a Bugatti Veyron under full throttle!

[onewhippedpuppy]

I'll believe 300 miles when I see it.

[turbo6bar]

Originally Posted by kaisen

The total cost per mile to own our Volt thus far is surprising. We used the California (CA) and national (N'tl) averages for electricity and gasoline prices to calculate the cost/mile. These figures do not include any maintenance, simply fuel. Here in Santa Monica the Chevy cost us 9.1 cents per mile to operate. For reference, a Toyota Prius would cost considerably less, 7.7 cents per mile. The Prius figure assumes its 50-mpg EPA rating, though we've yet to back that up through testing. Nevertheless, it gives you something to chew on for comparison.

Hmmm, that's interesting. I assumed the Volt would cost much less per mile since it uses less fuel and more electricity. If cost per mile is higher than a Prius, it's hard to justify the electric hybrids.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by turbo6bar

Hmmm, that's interesting. I assumed the Volt would cost much less per mile since it uses less fuel and more electricity. If cost per mile is higher than a Prius, it's hard to justify the electric hybrids.

Edmunds average cost per mile is based on 60% gasoline and 40% electricity. If you drove around town or shorter trips, and not long road trips like they did, YMMV as they say.

Under electric-only use, Edmunds saw 33.7 kWh/100 miles. At the US average of $.12 per kWh (not taking advantage off off-peak rates) you'd be at $.04 per mile with the Volt, as tested by Edmunds (electric only).

See the article linked above. There are charts with their 10,000 mile report.

[cairns]

Oh Kaisan here you are hyping the Volt again. But I suspect you have yet to actually buy one- or am I wrong?

The facts are the Volt is an overhyped two arm ugly failure heavily subsidized with our tax money. It is nowhere near meeting the sales targets GM set for it (10,000 per year- they've sold 3,895 and there are hundreds-if not thousands- sitting on dealer lots). The Buick for grey hairs made on the same production line is outselling it two to one. The Leaf is doing the same thing.

In short, the Volt is just more proof that the government should not make business decisions.

The Tesla, while also subsidized, promises performance and range that would surely sell- if Tesla can deliver. And they are beautifully designed. But all we've really seen is a lot of hype and one small, very heavy overpriced Lotus with a very limited range. Could you take it to the track, flog it all day and drive it home the way you can a real Elise?? No friggin' way.

For now I think Island said it best- hydrocarbons are cheap and battery technology has a long, long way to go before it's going to be viable much less affordable.

Let investors risk their money- and quit risking ours.

[turbo6bar]

Yeah, it does look like a YMMV thing. The ~30 mile range to obtain the low cost-per-mile is a real drawback, IMO. That's because I'm in the suburbs. I'm really surprised it only managed 34 mpg. The lower cost Prius seems like the clear winner.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by cairns

Oh Kaisan here you are hyping the Volt again..

Nope. Correcting misconceptions. Argue all you want if your facts are straight. Even then there's enough interpretation on how you use the facts.

But facts are facts. Regurgitate those. Not the misconceptions.

[island911]

Originally Posted by kaisen

...

As for quoting 0-60 times AND still getting stated range estimates.... are you freaking kidding!!?? Guess the range of a Bugatti Veyron under full throttle!

Comparing a Tesla to a Veyron? ...are you freaking kidding!!??

So, I had to look... a Veyron is capable of 250-something mph, at 3 mpg on a 25+gal tank. That gives you 75miles covered, and a coast-down from 250mph. ...maybe another 5 miles. That is half the best range of a Tesla at what... 40_mph?

I expect that the Veyron's range at 130mph (Tesla's top speed) is better than the Tesla's at 45mph . . and you will get to a gas station, fill up and go long before the Tesla finds a plug and an over-night charge.

The EPA hwy for the Veyron is 13mpg -> a 325_mile range.

IOW, the comparison is just silly.

..42 kW·h battery pack vs 1000+ kW·h gas. (and that 1000+ kW·h is calc'd on energy to the wheels - losses included.) ...silly

[jyl]

Not at lot of people buying $70,000 cars are packing up the kids and going on 400 mile roadtrips. Compare the % of $70K cars in Beverly Hills with the number passing through Hungry Valley on Hwy 5. They may take trips to Mammoth or Aspen but they have the Cayenne for that

[cairns]

K,

The facts are that virtually no one- not even you- wants to actually buy a Volt- even at it's subsidized price. I know that's hard for you to live with but the sales records speak for themselves and are readily available. No matter how great you say it is, no matter how much you tout the technology- no matter how much you believe in it- no one wants the POS.

Only 3,895 cars have been sold- and the vast majority of those are fleet sales to federal and local governments- look it up yourself if you don't believe me. When you take into account how many other cars have been sold in this country- or narrow that to how many hybrids- and narrow that to how many Priuses- the fact becomes even more obvious- the Volt is a dismal failure.

I'm just wondering how long it will be before they're discontinued.

Sorry,
C

[island911]

Originally Posted by jyl

Not at lot of people buying $70,000 cars are packing up the kids and going on 400 mile roadtrips. Compare the % of $70K cars in Beverly Hills with the number passing through Hungry Valley on Hwy 5. They may take trips to Mammoth or Aspen but they have the Cayenne for that

Maybe, but Not at lot of people buying $70,000 cars are packing up the kids and and taking them to work. ...maybe driving them to private school ...but they have mini-vans and nannies for that.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Tire life on a veyron is the limiting factor for top-speed endurance, not fuel capacity.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by island911

Comparing a Tesla to a Veyron? ...are you freaking kidding!!??

Extreme point, but it could be made for any car. Want to look at 0-60 times or top speed? Then you are NOT going to get the EPA rated range that manufacturer's advertise.

So, I had to look... a Veyron is capable of 250-something mph, at 3 mpg on a 25+gal tank. That gives you 75miles covered, and a coast-down from 250mph. ...maybe another 5 miles.

Veyron is good for 2.0 mpg at full throttle and a 26 gallon tank, so 32-33 miles..... roughly the same as the electric range of the Volt under REGULAR driving. Both would have coast-down depending on how fast they were going when they ran out of fuel/energy.

Interestingly, the Veyron gets about 5.0 mpg at 40 mph.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Tire life on a veyron is the limiting factor for top-speed endurance, not fuel capacity.

No, the Veyron will run out of fuel in 12 minutes and the tires are rated at 260 mph for 15 minutes. It will run out of fuel first

[island911]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Extreme point, but it could be made for any car. Want to look at 0-60 times or top speed? Then you are NOT going to get the EPA rated range that manufacturer's advertise. ...

of course. But the electrics are especially sensitive in their metrics. That is, they seem to compare their 'best case' to the gas versions 'typical'. ...or do you expect that those Tesla numbers (projected performance and all ) are apples & apples to typical gas cars? ...running AC, heat, heated seats, Big Bose sound system...

Originally Posted by kaisen

Veyron is good for 2.0 mpg at full throttle ...

fwiw, Wikipedia gave 3mpg

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by jyl

Not at lot of people buying $70,000 cars are packing up the kids and going on 400 mile roadtrips. Compare the % of $70K cars in Beverly Hills with the number passing through Hungry Valley on Hwy 5. They may take trips to Mammoth or Aspen but they have the Cayenne for that

here is just a little of what i have seen driiving across the the country?
$50k pickups dragging a $100k camper.
$500k mega RV's
$70k bmw driving to visit grandma over the holidays.
$250k lambos driving back and forth across the country multiple times trying to forget a failed relationship.
$100k porsches driving to utah for a ski weekend.
1919 model t driving from coast to coast.

what i havent seen out on the vast freeways of america's west or more than 50 miles from a urban 220 outlet
chevy volt
nissan leaf
prius electric
tesla
smart car of any size
1978 vw rabit w/25 24v marine batteries

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by cairns

K,

The facts are that virtually no one- not even you- wants to actually buy a Volt- even at it's subsidized price. I know that's hard for you to live with but the sales records speak for themselves and are readily available. No matter how great you say it is, no matter how much you tout the technology- no matter how much you believe in it- no one wants the POS.

Only 3,895 cars have been sold- and the vast majority of those are fleet sales to federal and local governments- look it up yourself if you don't believe me. When you take into account how many other cars have been sold in this country- or narrow that to how many hybrids- and narrow that to how many Priuses- the fact becomes even more obvious- the Volt is a dismal failure.

I'm just wondering how long it will be before they're discontinued.

Sorry,
C

I believe these would be the relevant facts at hand. I would have an easier time supporting the Volt as a experiment in new technology if I weren't paying for it. Honda didn't ask the government to fund its experiment with the FCX Clarity hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

I can go buy a practical, simple, reasonably fun to drive Mazda3/Ford Focus/Hyundai Elantra for under $20k that gets 33+ MPG. Or I could spend twice as much (after tax credit) for a complicated, equally practical, and distinctly not fun Chevy Volt that gets about the same MPG. Tell me again why the Volt makes sense. I'm not a big Prius fan, but at least they get better MPG and don't cost much more.

[Hawktel]

I'd consider the 300 mile range tesla. If they get the price down to 40Gs.

300 mile range would cover me 98% of the driving I wish to do.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I believe these would be the relevant facts at hand. I would have an easier time supporting the Volt as a experiment in new technology if I weren't paying for it. Honda didn't ask the government to fund its experiment with the FCX Clarity hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

Honda (and GM, and BMW) received money from the Federal Government for the advancement of Hydrogen fuel cell technology.

ALL major manufacturers have taken money

ALL major manufacturers have benefitted from 'alternative fuels' initiatives AND hybrid incentives.

It's not just the Big Three. They're all "guilty", if that's the correct way to phrase it.