For The Same Money (+/-) $45K-$50K..Testarossa or 930? Which Would You Choose?

[willtel]

Originally Posted by javadog

Actually, both statements are wrong. The "flat 12" Ferrari motors are technically 180 degree v-12's.

Flat-12 = no V meaning it isn't a V12.

Originally Posted by kaisen

Ferrari made too many Testarossas!? You're a smart guy and I respect your opinion. But Ferrari made about 7200 Testarossas from 1984 to 1991....less than 1,000 per year, worldwide. They also made about 2300 512TRs (no cheesegrater)...

Even the very last 512M had the slats on the sides. They are needed to feed air to the radiators.



10000 is still a pretty big number for a single model Ferrari of that era.

The most valuable Testarossas are the very early "single mirror" cars, most of those still trade around six figures if in good shape. The later cars aren't worth as much.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by javadog

Actually, both statements are wrong. The "flat 12" Ferrari motors are technically 180 degree v-12's. They are not "boxer" motors, like the 911 motors. It's a popular misconception, no doubt helped by Ferrari's (mis)use of the term "boxer".

Several reasons why this is so... but it boils down to the fact that the Ferrari motors have two cylinders that share each crankshaft journal.

Carry on,
JR

Right on. But, the original boxer engine term came from the earliest automotive two cylinders that actually fired at the same time and opposed, hence the name. Crazy as it seems engineers did this but somehow these engines survived with masssive flywheels.

Back to the topic. I like both cars for various mechanical reasons, but for looks, I like red-heads but not this one. Respectfully, I like the car but to me, the TR reminds me of the gold chain set who graduated from owning a Corvette ZR1. I just wouldn't want to be seen in it. I would take an understated black 930 with stock black Fuchs, no polish please but ramp the motor up.

Values? Could care less but the 911 turbo was always special, fun entertainment spooling up and a reasonable collector buy. For Ferrari, some day soon the 308 will surpass the 512 values. I could kick myself for the many 246 Dino's that slipped passed me when they were in the $ mid- teens $. That was during the mid- 1980's. Look at them now.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by AirKuhl

The relative rarity definitely means a lot, it's one of the factors that make a car valuable. But not all rare cars are collectible and not all collectible cars are rare. Ultimately, the cars that eventually appreciate in value are the ones that made a permanent impact on someone as a kid, and then later in life when they have money they finally buy one. At that point it's supply and demand with the rarest ones the most expensive but they all ride the tide on the way up. The Countach blew a lot of minds in the 70's and the Testarossa was right there with it in my faint little-kid memory

And, sometimes the values make no sense. Who knows why? In the Countach world, some of the later cars were produced in smaller numbers than the LP400 and all of them drove better (quite a few were a lot faster) yet the LP400 is the only one that's gone up in value by a large percentage. Some people relate it to the cleaner styling (lack of flares) and the "periscope" roof (odd, since none of the cars had the rear view mirror that went with it, so it was non-functional) but who really knows? The later cars, with the flares and wings, were the cars in all of the posters on kids' bedroom walls.

The Testarossa world is a little weird, too. The 512TR has kept far more of it's value than the original Testarossa. Granted, there are a lot of updates but not enough to explain the value differences. And the 512M has really done much better than both. Is one of those worth 3 times what the TR sells for? Not to me...

JR

[algs911]

There was a Testarossa for sale at a dealership here in Monterey a while back. I wondered why it was so cheap! Well, turns out the timing BELT (yes, a rubber belt) needed to be changed (the car needed it's 30k (or 60k, cannot remember) service. The guy told me that the entire engine and tranny needed to be R&R'd to replace the belts. He indicated that special tools and cherry picker was involved; it should be about a $15k to $20k job.

So, having said that, there's no question that I'd rather have the 930. It's a car you can actually drive AND work on (and parts are plentiful and relatively inexpensive.

The Ferrari is beautiful though!

Al

[Dottore]

It really depends whether you want to buy into the P-car mythology or the F-car mythology.

No point being too doctrinaire about these things. Change can be good.

Assuming both were cherry, I'd opt for the TR at this stage. It's ugly, but it grows on you, and it is huge fun to drive. I think I've had too many P-cars.....

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by speeder

The 930 is "timeless"?

Nearly every 930 that I've ever seen for sale has had a top end at least with much less than 100k miles. Between fuel, checkbook maintenance and upgrades to make them faster than a stock Miata at the track, they are like small yacht in terms of ownership costs.

I don't know much about Ferraris.

Service and reliability... I agree. That would be true of any exotic car of that vintage. The Ferrari is no exception.

Styling... I think the 930 is part of a lineage that is recognizable throughout the 911 history. For the simple reason that Porsche has maintained certain elements since 1964, these cars have an enduring quality.

To my eye, the cup cars do not outshine a well kept 930. If you are talking about a car with bolt on fiberglass fenders and such, I would agree, but not on the example cited.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by algs911

There was a Testarossa for sale at a dealership here in Monterey a while back. I wondered why it was so cheap! Well, turns out the timing BELT (yes, a rubber belt) needed to be changed (the car needed it's 30k (or 60k, cannot remember) service. The guy told me that the entire engine and tranny needed to be R&R'd to replace the belts. He indicated that special tools and cherry picker was involved; it should be about a $15k to $20k job.

So, having said that, there's no question that I'd rather have the 930. It's a car you can actually drive AND work on (and parts are plentiful and relatively inexpensive.

The Ferrari is beautiful though!

Al

Yes, they are high maintenance but what else would one expect from a factory dealer? Everyone seems to make a big deal about it, but it's only mechanical and takes an understanding. Like the 308 t-belts, just a Saturday afternoon chore. If you don't like getting your hands dirty, expect to pay but otherwise, these 80's cars are actually much better for servicing vs. later model cars. This is why the 80's 911 series are popular. How many actually take them to a factory Porsche dealer for service? I think many freak about the service of a Ferrari and will only own one for a short time to say they had it but dump them them prior to a service, like the above mentioned. When I sold these cars years ago, it was a common thing.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by javadog

Yes. If you compare the production numbers of Ferrari cars prior to the modern era (say, starting with the 308) and since, you'll see what I mean.

Of course, but they made hundreds of thousands of 67-69 Camaros and look at their values lately.

It's all relative.

By "modern" standards, less than a thousand a year worldwide is a very, very small number of cars.

Anybody with reasonable eyesight? Seriously, if a person can't immediately tell them apart, they have no business buying either car.

I meant in terms of it being recognizable, iconic, important.... the 930 is important because of its performance, not its looks. To most of the public, it looks like a "regular" 911. Not so with the Testarossa.

A Dino and a 308 are two different animals. While Dino prices have gone up (and they are in the pre-modern Ferrari era) the later v-8 cars have not done much. There's a litttle upside in the very nicest examples of the 328 but the rest are flat, at best. My 328 appreciated $5k in the 15 years I owned it, while I spent $50k on maintenance and repairs. I'll let someone else do the math.

Not the point. We're talking about the next twenty years, not your personal myopic timeframe. Every nice 3xx Ferrari is worth more than it was in 2007. And they're going up, not down. True of the Testarossa as well. Look at the 365/512BBs.... they were cheap, now they're not.

I still say I wouldn't buy either car with the expectation of making money on them. I'd buy the car that fits my needs the best.

Spot on! You shouldn't buy either car as an investment. But appreciation might outpace the differential in cost to other cars. I.E., if you buy a modern cheaper-to-keep-on-the-road car that is still depreciating, an older flat-or-appreciating model looks attractive even if it costs a bit to maintain.

My point on how much new ones cost:

A new 911 Turbo is a couple hundred grand, or less.
A new V12 Ferrari is four hundred grand, or more.

Since an entry-level Ferrari is a used Ferrari, the price of entry of new ones always ties back to the old ones. A little less so with Porsche.

But if a new 12 Fcar is twice as much as a 911Turbo, but a similar vintage TR is about par with a 930, things will adjust a bit.

JR, everything you say here mimicks the Ferrari boards, and they're "experts"..... but they've been so wrong about so many values in the last decade that I no longer listen to the sheeple.

I think the TRs will perform quite well in value over the next decade.

Originally Posted by willtel

Even the very last 512M had the slats on the sides. They are needed to feed air to the radiators.

Yes, my mistake

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by willtel

Flat-12 = no V meaning it isn't a V12.



Even the very last 512M had the slats on the sides. They are needed to feed air to the radiators.

Kaisen is still correct, Ferrari took a V12 design, and flattened it. You are also still correct in that it isn't a V12.

As for the slats, the original reason, is that with less air moving in that area of the car, they needer larger openings to feed the radiators, some countries had laws about how big an opening could be without covers, and the opening on the TR was much bigger. The slats are to keep chickens, rabbits, etc, out. The shape of the door, will channel air in, slats, or no slats

The BB/TR is a bit of an oddity, with the twelve cylinder engine sitting on top of the gearbox, making for a more compact car, and more centered weight distribution(at the sacrifice of center of gravity from putting the motor that high!!)

The TR further shortened the mechanicals, by widening the rear, so that the radiators sit beside the engine, rather than in front of the car. (The BB has a very long nose, makes curbs/speed bumps a bit of a challenge.)

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by algs911

Well, turns out the timing BELT (yes, a rubber belt) needed to be changed (the car needed it's 30k (or 60k, cannot remember) service. The guy told me that the entire engine and tranny needed to be R&R'd to replace the belts. He indicated that special tools and cherry picker was involved; it should be about a $15k to $20k job.

It's an expensive service, for sure. But the best independents charge $5-7K for the entire major service. It's more than popping on timing belts.....

Here's Eugenio's listing (they're about $7K):

"Major Service for Testarossas

{Documentation of every service comes complete with full write-up, pictures, and receipts for your records}

-Replace Timing Belts and Tensioners
-Replace Valve Cover Gaskets and End Cover Gaskets
-Replace Cam Seals and O-rings
-Replace Distributor Seals, Base Gaskets and Cap Gaskets
-Adjust All Valves
-Replace Spark Plugs
-Rebuild Water Pump
-Replace Front Crank Seal
-Change Oil and Filter
-Change Gear Oil
-Change Fuel Filters (2)
-Change Air Filter
-Change Air Pump Filter
-Replace AC belt
-Replace Alternator belt
-Replace Air Pump belt
-Replace Expansion Tank Cap
-Replace both Ignition Rotors
-Replace both Carbon Brushes
-Bleed Brakes
-Bleed Clutch
-Replace Coolant
-Inspection/Service of Air Conditioning System (recharge “R12”)
-Inspect all Lines (fuel, oil, water) and replace if necessary (extra charge for parts)
-Check of Lambda System and Bosch Fuel Injection System (make adjustments if necessary)
-Clean Engine Compartment
-Pressurize Coolant System, check for leaks
-Inspect CV Boots
-Inspect Fuse Panel (check all fuses and connectors)
-Inspect Tires / Tire pressure

{The items below are inspected and advised to the customer at no charge. If any item(s) require service, the customer will be advised of the cost.

-Inspect Ignition Wires / Caps / Rotors
-Inspect all Bulbs, Lights, Electrical Motors
-Inspect Clutch Pedal play
-Inspect all Suspension Bushings / Connections
-Inspect all Exhaust Joints / Connections for leaks
-Inspect Brake Pads and Discs
-Inspect Wheel Bearings"

YMMV

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by AirKuhl

That's why '57 Chevy's became so expensive when the guys that grew up lusting for one in '50's could finally afford a nice one. And then the '60's muscle cars and long hood 911's for all the 60 year old guys out there now. IMO we'll see the same for 70's and 80's and 90's iconic cars as those generations start getting old enough to raid their nest eggs.

This. The whole collector car thing really isn't all that hard to understand, it's all about the sentimental value of the car. Take the iconic cars of a generation, give that generation 40 years until they have money, then watch those cars skyrocket in value. '69 SS Camaros aren't selling for $150k because they're that good, it's because you have an entire generation that wanted one as a teen, or had one back in the day, or got laid in one, or etc. As time marches on you can see the values adjust, I see a lot less of the '57 Chevy craze, lots of muscle cars, and now some of the later '70s stuff like the Smokey & the Bandit T/A. The '80s is next.....

So ask yourself, what cars did kids in the '80s have on the wall? I was born in 1980, and distinctly remember posters of a white Countach, red F40, red Testarossa, and Arena Red 959 that hung on my wall. Of those four the F40 and 959 are already super pricey, the Countach supposedly sucks to drive, and the Ferrari.........I want one. Compared to a 930, I still want a Testarossa. It's a left brain vs right brain sort of paradox, I know the 930 would probably be cheaper and more reliable to own, but I still want one. Now I just need some money.........

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by kaisen

It's an expensive service, for sure. But the best independents charge $5-7K for the entire major service. It's more than popping on timing belts.....

Here's Eugenio's listing (they're about $7K):

"Major Service for Testarossas

{Documentation of every service comes complete with full write-up, pictures, and receipts for your records}

-Replace Timing Belts and Tensioners
-Replace Valve Cover Gaskets and End Cover Gaskets
-Replace Cam Seals and O-rings
-Replace Distributor Seals, Base Gaskets and Cap Gaskets
-Adjust All Valves
-Replace Spark Plugs
-Rebuild Water Pump
-Replace Front Crank Seal
-Change Oil and Filter
-Change Gear Oil
-Change Fuel Filters (2)
-Change Air Filter
-Change Air Pump Filter
-Replace AC belt
-Replace Alternator belt
-Replace Air Pump belt
-Replace Expansion Tank Cap
-Replace both Ignition Rotors
-Replace both Carbon Brushes
-Bleed Brakes
-Bleed Clutch
-Replace Coolant
-Inspection/Service of Air Conditioning System (recharge “R12”)
-Inspect all Lines (fuel, oil, water) and replace if necessary (extra charge for parts)
-Check of Lambda System and Bosch Fuel Injection System (make adjustments if necessary)
-Clean Engine Compartment
-Pressurize Coolant System, check for leaks
-Inspect CV Boots
-Inspect Fuse Panel (check all fuses and connectors)
-Inspect Tires / Tire pressure

{The items below are inspected and advised to the customer at no charge. If any item(s) require service, the customer will be advised of the cost.

-Inspect Ignition Wires / Caps / Rotors
-Inspect all Bulbs, Lights, Electrical Motors
-Inspect Clutch Pedal play
-Inspect all Suspension Bushings / Connections
-Inspect all Exhaust Joints / Connections for leaks
-Inspect Brake Pads and Discs
-Inspect Wheel Bearings"

YMMV

What I'd like to know - how much for parts, and how hard to DIY?

[scottmandue]

IMHO (and as many others have said) for drivability the 930, for sexy Italian the TR.

Styling and appearance are very subjective... I am more excited about the TR than the 930... but again that is IMHO (I am biases because I have always had a thing for the TR since day one).

I'm sure either car would be great fun to drive... kind of funny how we are talking "reliability" and "maintenance"... if the OP was really worried about that he would be shopping for a Honda or Toyota.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

What I'd like to know - how much for parts, and how hard to DIY?

It's roughly $1500 in parts, depending on where you buy them




Anything can be DIY. I'd guess that less than 1% of Ferrari owners even try. Even if they were competent enough, or had the tools, they'd worry that a DIY service would devalue the car about the same as the difference in paying someone to do it. Zero sum game, unfortunately.

[McLovin]

I've owned several ferraris, but they've all been of the worthless 80s V8 variety.

(still have one, though I'd love to sell it, just can't stomach dealing with V8 ferrari tire kickers - they are the absolute worst).

There may be some other Ferraris that I'd rather have than a 930, but a Testarossa isn't one of them. That thing is a boat.

IMO, while most of us here drooled over testarossas in the mags in the 80s when we were teens, the vast majority of us here would not, in the end, enjoy a Testarossa, and would regret buying it.

(Just as I was correct when I predicted that Wayne would not end up liking, and would sell in fairly short order, the 308).

[kaisen]

It ain't rocket science......

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Anything can be DIY. I'd guess that less than 1% of Ferrari owners even try. Even if they were competent enough, or had the tools, they'd worry that a DIY service would devalue the car about the same as the difference in paying someone to do it. Zero sum game, unfortunately.

I agree. DIY is a badge of honor among 911 owners. It's a badge of shame for most Ferrari owners. So many of them truly believe that their mid 80s Ferrari is somehow made completely differently than any other car on earth. When that is simply not true. Mechanically, there is nothing unique about them at all. They can be worked on and fixed just like any other car. But they are the strange type that think it must be serviced at an authorized dealer, by a guy name Guiseppe, with only air imported from Italy put in the tires.

Plus, for the most part, Ferrari owners don't have the ability to DIY. They're just not for the most a DIY type crowd.

(That being said, for the few Ferrari DIYers that seem to be out there, they have some really incredible ones. The current V12 308 project, for example, is absolutely insane).

I think there are a few good people in the internet Ferrari world, but there's a lot of weirdos, who exchange a TON of misinformation among themselves.

[AirKuhl]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Plus, for the most part, Ferrari owners don't have the ability to DIY. They're just not for the most a DIY type crowd.

(That being said, for the few Ferrari DIYers that seem to be out there, they have some really incredible ones. The current V12 308 project, for example, is absolutely insane).

I think there are a few good people in the internet Ferrari world, but there's a lot of weirdos, who exchange a TON of misinformation among themselves.

True, you have to separate the ones that actually know stuff firsthand vs. the ones that read something online once and are just regurgitating it. But this is true of the 911 world as well.

I have toyed with the idea of getting a Ferrari after a lifetime of Porsche ownership, but if I do it will probably be a medium-mileage 360. Under $100K, nearly Porsche level of reliability and much prettier to look at IMO.

[Cannonball996]

I think you are seeing a lot of lower prices on the TRs, because a lot of them are probably due for a major service. and with these type of cars service records and documentation are very important, as well as who did the work.

[intakexhaust]

Eric- You're spot on with the comment:
Anything can be DIY. I'd guess that less than 1% of Ferrari owners even try. Even if they were competent enough, or had the tools, they'd worry that a DIY service would devalue the car about the same as the difference in paying someone to do it. Zero sum game, unfortunately.


McLovin- Too funny...

(still have one, though I'd love to sell it, just can't stomach dealing with V8 ferrari tire kickers - they are the absolute worst).

There may be some other Ferraris that I'd rather have than a 930, but a Testarossa isn't one of them. That thing is a boat.


I'll add - My biggest peeve was when you dare allow a potential buyer drive it and watch them shift gears and I'm grinding my teeth. HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT