if only advances in technology were spontaneous with no trial & error and innovation...they should be more like finding black stuff seeping out of the ground. They should just be given to us, no work required.

:D

you know, advances in that ^^^ technology aren't going to happen spontaneously. ..certainly will not without trial & error and innovation.. maybe some tax credits and stimulus dollars. Shaun understands the needs.


ducking...:cool:

Does the Govt provide taxpayer dollars to subsidize the development of any other alternative fuel forms (hydrogen, CNG, etc.), other than battery powered cars?

They have in the past. You usually see them as fleet vehicles.

I've driven flex fuel, methanol, hybrids, electrics, hydrogen, CNG, etc......

Don't tell that to all of the manufacturers and businesses around the Globe who use petroleum in their products (or to make their products). It's ok to tell it to their consumers though. :cool:

Everything on Earth could be considered a "limited resource" including the (hazardous) metals/materials used to make the batteries that go into those electric cars. Where do you think that stuff comes from? Do you think strip-mining for metals is a better alternative to drilling for oil? What about the power needed to charge those magical batteries? Where do you think that stuff comes from?

Maybe use a different, low-tech battery technology for cell phones and laptops that...God forbid...we might have to charge a little more often.
There's a relatively miniscule (but fortunate) percentage of of the workforce that are able to use only mobile devices for work and totally avoid commuting anyway. And unless they never venture too far from their homes, they'll eventually need a vehicle to get around. If we're serious about energy independence, we might need to consider giving up a few of these frivolities, like iPads, that we now take for granted and allow the limited supplies of exotic materials, like lithium, to be used more productively.

Yup. And after lunch, before ya unplug your car and leave the restaurant, fill up the fuel tanks of the generators with used cooking oil, courtesy of the cook.

The Sun is a limited resource? Wind? Tides?

Those are all limited?

I'm not sure why you and Glenn are fixated on the fact that oil is a limited resource. I did raise 4 other points to discuss, and all of them play off each other. This isn't a one dimensional debate. A lot of overlap.

Yes, lithium is a limited resource. I think what you are missing that is core to my position is that research & development and innovation are critical aspects of solving the evolving energy crises. So someday lithium will be in short supply. Creating a culture of innovation means that it's more likely newer, better, more efficient batteries and battery materials will be developed when that happens.

Building a culture of business and technology innovation by Government is an important part of global competitive advantage. One only needs to look at how the Chinese and the Germans have done this with solar. We were effectively shut out of that game when the governments of those two countries decided it was in their national best interests to own that technology.


Does the US own any technology today? Is it important to the country's well-being that it does?

the mining for the rare earth elements for these vehicles is one of the most hazardous and ruinous things being done to the planet. google it.

definitely not - that mining is a serious local problem but not an overall global problem

burning oil at the rates humans are doing it, in contrast, IS a serious global problem

and...
[1] the mining can be done in a more responsible fashion
[2] the mining produces something that can be, and is, recycled; oil is not recycled when burned as a fuel
[3] rare earth metals are not rare - they are very common

posting clearly non-factual information does not promote understanding of the problems


yes, the Govt subsidizes the development of any other alternative fuel forms (hydrogen, CNG, etc.), but not the same extent that oil usage is subsidized

oh, really? i guess it isn't your backyard....

Rare earth element - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rare earth element - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and before you criticize my source, per your usual MO, try this:

Pollution the big barrier to freer trade in rare earths | Reuters

there is a reason 90% of the world's rare earth production occurs in china. and it isn't the rice.

your point related to global issues - fossil fuels are global problems at the rates they are being used; mining of anything - coal, rare earths, soda, etc. are localized problems

I just got back online. and see that this discussion has continued in the expected manor Some here really do enjoy the snipping and bickering. But with many interesting links and bits useful info also, thanks for sharing the insights. I am learning to read past the BS and focus on the real info
All EVs and alternate fuel vehicles at this time are in the early steps in developing alternatives to the petrol vehicles and many more steps will be needed to bring those technologies to the point where they can become practical and economic. Petrol has had over a hundred years to become what it is today.

There will always be resistance to new ideas and technologies. Some by the established industries with their vested interest, and by status quo adherents who just cant see the just can't see advantages of investing in preparing for the needs of the not too distant future while the old technologies are still working for us.

As has been mentioned, there are many significant costs to using petrol, clean ups from big spills, wars to maintain our access to the oil in distant parts of the world, health costs to humans and all of nature. Are a few.

Its not a matter of if, but when these new technologies will be needed. And to my mind who will be poised to provide the best options at that time. For me making the investment now to make ourselves a player is critical. These will be a big part of the coming economy. And I want our country to be a part of it. These will create some of the new manufacturing jobs of the future. Innovation is what we do best. Certainly not all new technologies being looked into now will pan out, but some will and I think it prudent to make the effort.

Cheers Richard

hah! nice edit. the original:

"rare earths are actually rather common - when first discovered they were thought to be rare

you may want to expand your internet search"

isn't it fun how the local problems of fossil fuels have become global problems? and where does all the contaminated water and radiation go? it doesn't stay in china....

and, as for your original post.... no kidding they are common. they are everywhere. but everywhere (except china) has shut down the mining (where those minerals are available in quantities worth mining) due to the enormous pollution cost.

you may want to expand your internet search.

why are you invested enough in batteries and EV's to be defending them? that is the question i find interesting, randy.

I look at this as an affordable EV, but then I think, why would I bother with this? If you compare this to the Honda FCX which is already available for lease in some areas, gets around 300 miles range and can refuel in 3 mins, and it comes with a home fuel station for around $600 month. I think I'll wait. It seems like EV tech is going to fall behind other tech very quickly.

These seem like a novelty item at best, and not worth buying as they seem to be a transitional technology like a gas hybrid. What am I missing here?

this is interesting:

Battery invented by Edison gets a modern recharge | ksl.com

an old school battery, revamped with graphene. go science! (this is not meant to be in green.... i really do find it cool!)

fossil fuels have become global problems because of CO2 emissions, which cause 3 problems globally:

1. ocean acidification - e.g. destruction of oysters, coral reefs, and so on
2. the favoring of plants with a certain photosynthetic pathway over others (search on CAM, C4) thereby endangering various animals that require those plants
3. climate change, which includes global warming & sea level rise

reducing the use of fossil fuels to lower levels reduces all 3 above

in contrast, mining causes problems near the mine site, downstream from the mine site, and (for coal at least) by polluting transport routes and disposal sites

for a "rare" earth metal, the problems are limited to the area of the mining site

also, they are recyclable

I have no investments in batteries, EV's, or PV solar. I do own some AEIS which you can look up to see that it has a pretty tenuous connection with this discussion. Comments here would not do much to influence a stock price any way.

that must be some left wing crazy whacko news source. We've been told for days now that there cannot be breakthroughs in battery technology! ;)

odd co-incidence -- just yesterday I was at an auto repair shop (that works on Vanagons) and they had copies of The Economist* so I picked thru them, found an article on graphene and read thru it.


* I kid you not - and this is not at all an upscale place