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kaisen 06-26-2012 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nynor (Post 6825136)
kaisen, you have no idea.

you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nynor (Post 6825149)
is this some sort of party-line issue in your head, kaisen? webbie? et al?

it isn't a partisan issue for me. there are some serious problems with the production of EV's. one of which is POLLUTION.

Again, it's not partisan for me..... it never is, I could care less for politics or parties. I could align with some positions from both sides of the political fence.

I do my part, but I'm not terribly vocal about my green stance

I agree that battery production can be an environmental concern. Although recycling can minimize the impact.

Electricity for EVs can be generated by hydro, solar, or wind. Even nuclear could be considered clean. Coal could be criticized, of course.

Oil (gasoline/diesel) can only be mined/drilled, which has its own set of environmental and global-political impact.

Neither is without their flaws. And maybe that's why I feel both should be explored.

RWebb 06-26-2012 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nynor (Post 6825149)
there are some serious problems with the production of EV's. one of which is POLLUTION.

urban myth -- assuming you mean the pollution to build one is so high it out weighs pollution from operation of a gas or diesel fueled car

nynor 06-27-2012 07:32 AM

urban myth?! LOL! the head-in-the-sand is strong with this one.

In China, the true cost of Britain's clean, green wind power experiment: Pollution on a disastrous scale | Mail Online

nynor 06-27-2012 07:34 AM

https://www.google.com/search?q=pollution+from+china+rare+earth+mining&hl =en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Sia&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnsu&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X& ei=xCbrT4HcI8zOqAG4lo3zBQ&ved=0CE4Q_AUoAQ&biw=1024 &bih=653

island911 06-27-2012 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nynor (Post 6826156)
urban myth?! LOL! the head-in-the-sand is strong with this one.

nah, He thinks he has Jedi mind-trick powers.

"There is not the pollution you are looking for.."

Darthweebster is trying to pinch your throat thru the screen right now.:D

coldstart 06-27-2012 10:32 AM

Just a brief interruption to break up the conversation between the two extreme positions on EV cars and everything else in life.


You guys seem to have tons of time on your hands. Arguing on the internet is like banging your head against the wall.


I wouldn't debate the pollution issue too much as the next step may to be a ban on classic cars that may not be up to modern emission standards.......

McLovin 06-27-2012 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 6825376)
urban myth -- assuming you mean the pollution to build one is so high it out weighs pollution from operation of a gas or diesel fueled car

How much pollution does a modern, commuter-type gas engined passenger car put out?

On Top Gear the other day, they were testing the new 911, and said that when driven in areas like London or LA, the air coming out of the tailpipe is cleaner than the air going in.

RWebb 06-27-2012 10:58 AM

you are correct that a "modern" car produces low levels of NOx, CO, and HC, Mcloving but only IF it is a certified ULEV AND only if you EXCLUDE CO2 emissions

in contrast an EV produces lower levels of the 3 conventional pollutants, and much much lower levels of CO2

and the EV does that in ALL countries, some of which are rapidly industrializing and lack EU, Japanese and US levles of pollution controls


the gibberish above from the usual suspects cannot obscure the simple fact that mining for rare earths can be done in a low-impact fashion, and increasingly is done in a lower impact fashion

and, as noted above, rare earths can be, and are recycled - you cannot recycle gasoline or diesel after burning them

now, on to the urban myth - you will often see the stmt. that EVs are high pollution etc. posted on the internet - I've posted before, that I ran down the source of this stmt. Guess where it originated? From a student newspaper or a non-accredited right-wing religious college back East - when I contacted those students and their newspaper about where THEY got their information, they did not reply = Urban Myth


my point is not to convince the 2 people here who will argue any point, it is to prevent the spread of mis-information (or dis-information) to others

krichard 06-27-2012 11:15 AM

Screw the model S, here's the EV I'm saving up for:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340824306.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340824344.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340824380.jpg

intakexhaust 06-27-2012 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krichard (Post 6826568)
Screw the model S, here's the EV I'm saving up for:

What are we going to do about that traditional engine sound? Maybe a new market for exterior engine sound systems... or... interior. Yikes.

onewhippedpuppy 06-27-2012 12:12 PM

You guys are funny. Throw everything else aside, because about 50% of the electricity to power Mr. SelfRightous' electric car comes from this:

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/im...aGDSgsZColnZx6

Horray for saving the planet!

krichard 06-27-2012 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy (Post 6826663)
You guys are funny. Throw everything else aside, because about 50% of the electricity to power Mr. SelfRightous' electric car comes from this:

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/im...aGDSgsZColnZx6

Horray for saving the planet!

You're worried about steam?

RWebb 06-27-2012 12:51 PM

actually, no new coal plants are being built in the US - natural gas is wiping it out

EVs are a start to getting the grid coupled to the transportation "fuel" and the grid is a lot easier to clean up than million of emissions sources

onewhippedpuppy 06-27-2012 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 6826723)
actually, no new coal plants are being built in the US - natural gas is wiping it out

EVs are a start to getting the grid coupled to the transportation "fuel" and the grid is a lot easier to clean up than million of emissions sources

I believe the numbers are around 50% coal and 20% natural gas in regards to electricity source. No new coal plants does not mean that coal is being phased out, it's still the cheapest source of electricity to power the "clean" EV.

As for the grid itself, I don't think you'll see power companies spend billions (trillions?) out of the goodness of their hearts to not only clean up their power source but also simultaneously upgrade their transmission capability to enable everyone in the USA to own an EV. That would require a consumer driven demand for them to ramp up supply, based on a larger percentage of the population wanting an electric car. Not likely based on current technology.

nynor 06-27-2012 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 6826536)
you are correct that a "modern" car produces low levels of NOx, CO, and HC, Mcloving but only IF it is a certified ULEV AND only if you EXCLUDE CO2 emissions

in contrast an EV produces lower levels of the 3 conventional pollutants, and much much lower levels of CO2

and the EV does that in ALL countries, some of which are rapidly industrializing and lack EU, Japanese and US levles of pollution controls


the gibberish above from the usual suspects cannot obscure the simple fact that mining for rare earths can be done in a low-impact fashion, and increasingly is done in a lower impact fashion

and, as noted above, rare earths can be, and are recycled - you cannot recycle gasoline or diesel after burning them

now, on to the urban myth - you will often see the stmt. that EVs are high pollution etc. posted on the internet - I've posted before, that I ran down the source of this stmt. Guess where it originated? From a student newspaper or a non-accredited right-wing religious college back East - when I contacted those students and their newspaper about where THEY got their information, they did not reply = Urban Myth


my point is not to convince the 2 people here who will argue any point, it is to prevent the spread of mis-information (or dis-information) to others

no it isn't, webbie. china is producing 90% of the rare earth metals (some sources claim as high as 97%). the pollution at those sites is atrocious. most are state run and they don't live up to their own lax and low tech pollution standards (not my words, BTW). then, there are a ton of illegal rare earth operations, wink wink, nudge nudge. do you honestly believe that china gives one whit about pollution? look at the pictures, it is disgusting.

really, i cannot believe that you unable to see and read the truth on this subject. again, what vested interest do you have, other than your ego?

the fact is, the USA shut down all of its rare earth mines. mostly, this is due to china undercutting the pricing, but also due to the pollution. again, it isn't the rice.

RWebb 06-27-2012 01:58 PM

1. China has just tighten rules and enforcement on the mines - NYT article w/in the last week or 2

2. the US mine is starting back up

You are correct that there is always SOME pollution, no matter what the source of motive power is - including horses.

Let me know if there is anything else you need to be corrected on.

nynor 06-27-2012 02:02 PM

1. buhahahahahahaha! they weren't enforcing their PREVIOUS rules! you are funny, rwebb.

2. so one USA mine is starting back up. great.

3. some pollution? again, you slay me. the pollution from the mining in china is off the charts. there is no hard data on it because, you guessed it, it is china. and the gov't is doing most of the mining!

you have yet to show me where i am wrong. in fact, none of what you posted contradicts anything i wrote/quoted. really, randy, you must try harder.

seriously, i am done here. you have nothing. en oh tee aych aye en gee.

RWebb 06-27-2012 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy (Post 6826772)
I believe the numbers are around 50% coal and 20% natural gas in regards to electricity source. No new coal plants does not mean that coal is being phased out, it's still the cheapest source of electricity to power the "clean" EV.

As for the grid itself, I don't think you'll see power companies spend billions (trillions?) out of the goodness of their hearts to not only clean up their power source but also simultaneously upgrade their transmission capability to enable everyone in the USA to own an EV. That would require a consumer driven demand for them to ramp up supply, based on a larger percentage of the population wanting an electric car. Not likely based on current technology.

I agree, but it depends on where you live. We use mostly hydro here and are near to a shutdown of the only coal fired plant in the state. And EVs are not yet very suitable for Minnie-soda & etc.

The coal plants do require maintenance and have operating costs (esp. for the scrubbers), so there is a tipping point re building a new plant or converting to NG (which include biogas BTW - you can put a lid over a CAFO (stinky cattle or pig feeding operation) and collect the methane).

Some enviro groups also have a push on to kill off the existing coal plants (which also vent mercury into the atmosphere - it is a neruo-toxin and winds up in tuna and swordfish).

The coal co.s desperately want to find a way to create a clean coal technology - so far, it is spendy to do so. very very spendy

I expect the future of the grid will be lots of NG short-term, transitioning to nuclear, and PV later, with some wind, maybe off-shore (wave) energy, and a good bit of micro-power fuel cell installations here & there. Facebook or Paypal just started up the latter for one of their data centers.

RWebb 06-27-2012 02:10 PM

since I used to teach univ. courses on this stuff, here are a few pics to regale you...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340834846.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340834884.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340834903.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340834931.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340834949.jpg

nynor 06-27-2012 02:25 PM

so what. you have nothing.


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