Fracking, whats the big deal?

[aston@ultrasw.c]

Originally Posted by s_morrison57

Seems like this procedure works and that the wells produce way more gas, I don't know much about it, I don't know if they get more oil as well but I've heard that the Environmentalists are all up in arms with the procedure and I can't figure out why. Anybody know what's got the tree hugger's all upset?
Finn

The money will be made today but the full environmental impact will not be known for a long time.

[grendiers]

The side-bar, if you will, to oil fracking is frac-sand mining. We have a tourism based economy up and down the Mississippi River in MN and WI. The frac-sand companies have bullied their way into our area, yes, our area, and set up shop with very little public input. Some have hired off County staff associated with these very same companies, but from the other side of the counter. Money is the root and route for this evil. Frac-sand mining affects our tourism industry by ruining county roads, hundreds of daily truck trips, large sand-loading docks at the river and at rail yards. The dust from frac sand is known to be a health hazard. Water is pumped from our drought-stricken area up to 1 million gallons a DAY to clean the sand.

Small, 3-person town commissioners are making decisions for thousands of people up and down the river. Just a few (locals) are making any money, the job promises, spending promises are all lies. The false promise of making the US energy independent is the biggest lie. Big Oil never wants the price of gas or oil to go down. Throw in commodity manipulation by Wall Street, and there you have it. Keep drinking the koolaid if you want.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by s_morrison57

Anybody know what's got the tree hugger's all upset?
Finn

The mindset of some people is 'No one has definitively proven it is safe, therefore it is unsafe'. Toxic chemicals are pumped into the ground, theoretically separated from groundwater by a cement casing.

There is some evidence that fracking can cause earthquakes, I don't believe that is likely, but some people worry about it happening.

There are stories of fracking causing natural gas to enter the groundwater system, to the point where tap water will burn if an ignition source is present, but apparently that was also the case long before fracking.

There are enough points of concern that I don't accept it as 100% safe or desirable. The insatiable need for cheap (domestic) oil is the driver behind this.

[Flieger]

The fracing does trigger faults to slip before they would have. The earthquakes aren't very big because people don't frac on the San Andreas Fault. But they do discover previously unknown faults in seismically-quiet areas (like the middle of the country) because of fracing and earthquake swarms. But no one should really worry about the quakes. The issue (aside from the noise, unsightliness in your backyard) is whether or not the groundwater is contaminated by harmful components of frac fluid.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by monoflo

handling of frackfluids (source of green anxiety here is no one really comes clean as to what is in Frackfluid),

This is my greatest objection so far. Oil companies are pumping something deep into the ground and won't reveal what it is or submit it for evaluation. When an oil company says, "Trust me," I grab my butt, 'cause they are after it.

[MotoSook]

This thread is representative of the public debate...mostly fear and ignorance (and I mean that in the uninformed way). You have two post by folks qualified to speak and so far the only acknowledgement of facts is by the second of the folks who is actually in the field.

[BRPORSCHE]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

This is my greatest objection so far. Oil companies are pumping something deep into the ground and won't reveal what it is or submit it for evaluation. When an oil company says, "Trust me," I grab my butt, 'cause they are after it.

I have no concerns. You have to remember the depth we are talking about. The reasons the oil companies don't want to provide the information on what else is thrown down the hole is because it's all proprietary. Would you want someone else to be able to publicaly access your very valuable information and then drill a well a mile from you and have success? Heck no!

You can only imagine the things that we encounter coming back up the well bore with the cuttings. All kinds of things from tobacco and cotton. If it's cheap, an oil company has probably put it down hole at one point in the history of drilling for oil.

My only environmental concern with fracing and onshore drilling is the the contamination on the surface and the effect of the rig trucks on these small roads. But hopefully with enough O/G revenue from the tax the small towns can build som nice roads.

[MotoSook]

Originally Posted by mreid

Pollution of ground water and our aquifers with some pretty nasty chemicals known to cause some horrendous diseases. That's all.

Where is the proof? A government audit revealed no harmful agents used beyond trace levels if that. If the EPA had data to show otherwise you can bet your last dime this would all be shut down.

The oil and gas industry is very heavily regulated to ensure the public (and environment) health and safety.

[MotoSook]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

There is some evidence that fracking can cause earthquakes, I don't believe that is likely, but some people worry about it happening.

Where is the evidence? The US Geological Society has never concluded this that I'm aware of.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by MotoSook

Where is the evidence? The US Geological Society has never concluded this that I'm aware of.

They haven't made any definitive conclusions because they take forever for that. But it doesn't take much imagination to realize that injecting water into a fault will reduce friction and lead to more slippage like a tire on wet pavement. But they are small- only a 4.3 maximum in this case. Nothing really to write home about.

ftp://hazards.cr.usgs.gov/maps/sigeqs/20110228/20110228ARupdate.pdf

That pdf takes forever to load, but not the "disposal well sites" and the earthquake/fault locations.



All this says is that drilling into a fault and injecting water causes it to increase its slip rate temporarily as it releases stored strain energy. Seems kind of a "well, duh!" point.

Of course, fracing itself IS earthquakes- fracturing the ground creates seismic waves. They are tiny, tiny but they are still earthquakes. Underground nuclear tests and blasting to mine minerals also cause earthquakes.

Large man-made earthquakes are mostly associated with reservoirs near large faults, such as in China. The weight of the water causes more stress in the fault, and the water can permeate the ground and cause it to weaken.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by BRPORSCHE

I have no concerns. You have to remember the depth we are talking about.

I'm qualified to talk about this subject too, because I'm the only one here so far that has actually SEEN these faults we're talking about.

I've also seen them go from the surface to 7K or 8K feet in depth, and be several scores of miles long. There's lots of direct contact between the aquifer levels and the shale layers via these large plane faults.

Can frac fluid travel that far along a shear fault? I don't know, I'm not sure that anyone knows. But i know that what I see makes me think that high pressure frac fluid in an uncontrolled environment *could* access aquifer layers.

Do I support fracing? In as much as we've done an increasing number of projects involving horizontal drilling and fracing, yes, because it pays my bills. I prefer deep well classical oil drilling, but that's because it pays my bills faster. Ultimately, the three people who have commented here who are in the industry will say that we support fracing, because we're all doing well for ourselves thanks to it. The tree hugging part of me thinks that there must be a better way.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by madmmac

I've been to ND and drank the water. Anything may be an improvement.

I've been there several times and have a few architecture projects going up right now.

The builder I'm working with will not drink the water, nor will he let his kids and wife drink it.

Better safe than sorry.

Bottled water is very big in ND.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by BRPORSCHE

My only environmental concern with fracing and onshore drilling is the the contamination on the surface and the effect of the rig trucks on these small roads. But hopefully with enough O/G revenue from the tax the small towns can build som nice roads.

The cost to build roads capable of handling the fracking traffic is way beyond what small towns can ever afford as the only benefit they will usually receive is maybe increased sales tax revenue and increased property taxes. Towns don't usually get any O/G revenue itself. The reality is for many of the towns in Eagle-Ford anyway, fracking is truly a good news/bad news situation.

The road problem isn't just the "small towns". The bigger problem are the Farm roads. They are being destroyed in many areas by the trucks throughout Eagle-Ford and the states remedy appears to be to convert them to gravel roads... such a deal if you happen to live on one of them.

Until we moved last year we drove between Port A/Rockport area to San Antonio often. The last year or so we went way out of our way to get to IH37 to avoid the massive number of trucks and torn up roads we encountered going the usual way through the heart of Eagle-Ford.

There ain't no free lunch..

[Pazuzu]

Also, lots of fracing is done by "tiny" companies, not the Exxons and such. These small independents are, for lack of a better work, jackholes. They treat the town poorly, they treat the neighbors poorly, they treat their employees poorly and they treat the contract companies poorly. Bporsche can probably give you the same list of companies that I can who piss him off by treating him or his company like worms. I might be more for it if it was run by companies that I don't end up cursing by the end of a project.

[madmmac]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I've been there several times and have a few architecture projects going up right now.

The builder I'm working with will not drink the water, nor will he let his kids and wife drink it.

Better safe than sorry.

Bottled water is very big in ND.

I was not worried about the fracking. The normal tap water is horrible. Very hard and alkaline I believe is the problem.

[mreid]

Originally Posted by MotoSook

Where is the proof? A government audit revealed no harmful agents used beyond trace levels if that. If the EPA had data to show otherwise you can bet your last dime this would all be shut down.

The oil and gas industry is very heavily regulated to ensure the public (and environment) health and safety.

Faith in government. How quaint.

There is plenty of proof. All you have to do is look around. Poor casing installs, cracks, natural fissures, all contribute to the opportunity for contamination, but let me break my comments down for you:

The OP asked what the concern is all about.
Answer: contamination of ground water and aquifers

The industry has admitted over and over that hazardous chemicals are used, that's why they focus on how "impossible" it is for the fracking fluid to reach the water table. Impossible and Mother Nature should never be used in the same sentance.

Some sources for you as you seem to lack the motivation to look yourself. You may want to pay particular attention to the last link:

Natural Gas Explosions and Contaminated Water From Fracking Accidents

The Growing Evidence of the Threat of Fracking to the Nation

Fracking | Water Defense

Incidents where hydraulic fracturing is a suspected cause of drinking water contamination | Amy Mall's Blog | Switchboard, from NRDC

[Nathans_Dad]

Fracking is awesome, in Battlestar Galactica!

[M.D. Holloway]

Fracking: The Operations and Environmental Consequences of Hydraulic Fracturing (Energy Sustainability):Amazon:Books

Hmmmm. Well, yup.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

This is my greatest objection so far. Oil companies are pumping something deep into the ground and won't reveal what it is or submit it for evaluation. When an oil company says, "Trust me," I grab my butt, 'cause they are after it.

This is BS. We HAVE disclose what is in our frac fluids. Search for Fracfocus... Better yet, looky here:

Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry


Home | FracFocus Chemical Disclosure Registry

We have had frac fluids that would pass microtox since 2006. To give you a hint, baby shampoo won't pass microtox. The main component in most gel based frac fluids (other than water) is guar, the same edible plant product found in jelly beans, ice cream, etc.

If you are worried about the stuff we pump into these hydrocarbon containing reservoirs coming to surface, why doesn't H2S and other poisonous chemicals that occur naturally get into the ground water before we show up and drill a well?

Every 1/4 section adjacent to mine has a well on it, each of these wells has been frac'd. My well water has not been compromised. These are relatively shallow well of only 3000' or so.

[71scgc]

All the above links are published/posted by individuals/organisations with an anti-oil/gas agenda.
Research them before you take what they say as gospel.
This is an automotive forum, and you're here furthering the propaganda and agenda of people dead set against fossil fuels of any sort.
It just don't pass the smell test.
BTW, I am also a tree farmer. I do more for the environment than any of the organisations/individuals linked above.
If you think they don't frac wells in CA you're wrong.
Bottled water comes in plastic bottles. Plastic is made from petroleum. Those bottles will take longer to break down in the landfill than any supposed groundwater contamination caused by hyd. fracing will ever last.
Reduction of the aquifer in West Texas has been going on for decades. The cause? Center-pivot irrigators. This is well documented. The previously stated cause, not so much.
States experiencing the recent energy boom are receiving tax money from the oil/gas production. This has helped insulate them from the effects of the economic downturn. I guess that's a bad thing, since it isn't CA or NY.