Philip Seymour Hoffman dead

[techweenie]

You guys should get a room.

Back to the original point: I watched "Owning Mahowney" last night in honor of PSH. He played a man addicted to gambling (based on a true story) and I'm certain he had a lot to draw on.

I know some people have zero respect for people who achieve in the arts. But I think the world is poorer for his absence.

[Jeff Higgins]

I'm not so sure about that, tech - I think we can all appreciate someone who makes it in the arts, and can respect all of the hard work (and often great personal sacrifice) that gets them there. And this guy was one of the best - no one denies that. It's the fawning over him when he is gone, purely because he was well known, and the fact that he had "everything" many aspire to and will never achieve - yet he pissed it all away. He lost all respect right there.

[techweenie]

I'm not sure who was 'fawning over him.' Can you point out someone?

[Jeff Higgins]

You've got to be kidding me - the entire press, and many on this very thread. How could you possibly miss that?

[creaturecat]

Nicely said, Tabs, Nostatic.

Capote. Loved that movie

[techweenie]

You've got to be kidding me - the entire press, and many on this very thread. How could you possibly miss that?

I don't consume much mass media. I see mostly appropriate comments of sympathy for his family and regret he is gone too soon.

Responsible news outlets like PBS pivot to talking about the resurgence of heroin.

I don't see "fawning" but maybe my definition is different.

You want to see fawning, join any online discussion about Woody Allen. It seems clear he's a serial pedophile and people are irrational because of their love for his films.

[Jeff Higgins]

Believe me, I avoid most mass media as well. And, o.k. - maybe "fawning" isn't the best choice of words. There is, however, an awful lot of attention being given to this man that I just don't feel is really deserved. Especially in light of the scores that die the same tragic death, and receive no attention whatsoever.

Resurgence in heroin - yes. One of my oldest friends, a guy I grew up with, has a son cooling his heels in the state penitentiary right now. At the ripe old age of 24 he decided it was a good idea to rob banks to support his habit. He was stealing from his own parents' savings accounts as well, somehow having found passwords and account numbers to access such. He was a great kid, living in a very rural area - yet somehow heroin found him. Familiar story - started with oxy, got hooked, heroin was cheaper and easier to get. Amazing.

A girlfriend I had before I married my wife has been a lifelong addict (and yes, we did it together sometimes). Today, with the ready availability of the stuff, she has fallen off the radar again. I keep in touch with her brother, also one of my oldest friends, who also happens to be a lifelong alcoholic. Neither one of us, nor her mother, have heard from her in over a year. I often wonder, if the worst happens, how they would even identify her, how they would let anyone know. She'll probably die just another "Jane Doe". Turns out an older brother from their dad's previous marriage sexually abused both of them when they were little. Both, miraculously, have made it into their fifties. I don't see either one making 60. But no one will ever hear about either one of them...

[techweenie]

Jeff, I'm sorry to hear about your friends, when the (nearly) inevitable happens, people will likely be sad about 'what might have been.' I think it won't be 'fawning,' but a sort of projection. It isn't always about just that person, but all the people that person represents.

And while you'll see a lot of sympathy for PSH in Hollywood, it won't compare with how Robert Downey Jr. is praised for successfully beating his drug demons.

[Jeff Higgins]

Thanks, tech - the feeling of helplessness as I watch these two can be pretty overwhelming at times. Maybe that colors my reaction to the attention the celebrities get when they lose that battle. They are no better or worse than anyone else, and oh so many just die - end of story.

What Robert Downey Jr. has accomplished it truly commendable. What an inspiration. I hope he can hang onto it - that little demon is still on his shoulder, chirping in his ear. Like many here have said, he never leaves...

And then there is Charlie Sheen. Folks seem to celebrate his excesses, like he is some sort of anti-hero. One has to wonder how that attitude fits into this whole picture, what mixed messages that sends.

[Nathans_Dad]

As someone who works in healthcare, I'm certainly more jaded than most when it comes to addictive behavior. I've seen way too many people hurt themselves and their families through their own poor choices.

I work in an addiction unit as a side job, doing medical evaluations and such for them. It seems to me that the common thread I see is that addicts seem to have never learned how to deal with life. They turn to pills or heroin or sex or alcohol or whatever to escape their problems. I see it all the time, the same personality traits lead them to continually ask for other medications and such while they are in rehab for anxiety or stress or small aches and pains.

I think as a society we seem to have decided that life should always be happy and pain or sadness should not exist. If it does exist, then you should be able to take a pill or a drug to make it go away. I don't get that. Life is not all happiness and roses. Life sucks sometimes and the answer does not lie in a pill bottle or a syringe.

[weseeeee]

I enjoyed his acting and never would of guessed that he had a heroin addiction. Sad that his death seems to have been avoidable.

[techweenie]

Thanks, tech - the feeling of helplessness as I watch these two can be pretty overwhelming at times. Maybe that colors my reaction to the attention the celebrities get when they lose that battle. They are no better or worse than anyone else, and oh so many just die - end of story.



What Robert Downey Jr. has accomplished it truly commendable. What an inspiration. I hope he can hang onto it - that little demon is still on his shoulder, chirping in his ear. Like many here have said, he never leaves...



And then there is Charlie Sheen. Folks seem to celebrate his excesses, like he is some sort of anti-hero. One has to wonder how that attitude fits into this whole picture, what mixed messages that sends.

Bread and circuses. People cheer for the gladiators one minute and the slaves the next.

I agree, some seem to cheer Sheen (my dead-from-drugs-at-44 friend was one). I wonder how sincere the cheering is.

We rarely know histories, but Downey's dad gave him drugs as a small child. Other addicts have apparently had carefree, stressless lives.

It's rare that we know the whole story.

[Jeff Higgins]

It's more complicated than that, Rick. In my friend and his sister's cases, I think we can say with confidence - since it is the common thread in both of their lives - that the die was cast far earlier than they could be expected to deal with. Like many, they shut out the real root cause, and even managed to pretty much "forget" about it for decades. The best "success" (if we could really call it that) with my friend was when we were able to encourage him to remember, and seek treatment. Psychological treatment for the decades past abuse, not the current alcohol abuse. That seems to buy the most time between relapses. Alas, we have had no such luck with his sister.

So, no, no one ever claimed life was easy. It's easier for some than others, though. I guess that's part of my problem with the celebrities giving it all up - their lives appear, at least to us, to be so much "easier". Maybe I need to rethink that. Maybe a lot of them had abusive big brothers, too...

[Nathans_Dad]

I understand and agree Jeff, obviously I would think there is something either in their past or present that causes them to need to fill whatever hole they have with artificial pleasure.

My point though, is that everyone has some issues in their life. Obviously some have more traumatic things happen to them and in those cases I can see where you might give more of a "pass" to drug use, however there are also people who go through the same trauma and come out the other end contributing members of society who don't rely on drugs. What's the difference?

My nurse practitioner told me once that she was raised by an alcoholic father who was verbally and physically abusive to her and her siblings. He died of cirrhosis some years ago and she said many of her siblings and family members are currently alcoholics. Meanwhile, she put herself through nursing school and then nurse practitioner school and now makes nearly 6 figures and is married with a new baby.

What's the difference?

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

As someone who works in healthcare, I'm certainly more jaded than most when it comes to addictive behavior. I've seen way too many people hurt themselves and their families through their own poor choices.

I work in an addiction unit as a side job, doing medical evaluations and such for them. It seems to me that the common thread I see is that addicts seem to have never learned how to deal with life. They turn to pills or heroin or sex or alcohol or whatever to escape their problems. I see it all the time, the same personality traits lead them to continually ask for other medications and such while they are in rehab for anxiety or stress or small aches and pains.

I think as a society we seem to have decided that life should always be happy and pain or sadness should not exist. If it does exist, then you should be able to take a pill or a drug to make it go away. I don't get that. Life is not all happiness and roses. Life sucks sometimes and the answer does not lie in a pill bottle or a syringe.

I work with addicts in recovery quite a bit on a voluntary basis and share your frustration. Addicts are immature on some level of *problem solving* development, no matter how far they might make it in life by compensating or just through talent. There is no escaping this fact, if you spend enough time with many of them. But they may be very nice and worthwhile people in other ways, IMO. Everyone has their flaws, including the self-righteous among us. I'm not including you in that, FWIW.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Believe me, I avoid most mass media as well. And, o.k. - maybe "fawning" isn't the best choice of words. There is, however, an awful lot of attention being given to this man that I just don't feel is really deserved. Especially in light of the scores that die the same tragic death, and receive no attention whatsoever.

Resurgence in heroin - yes. One of my oldest friends, a guy I grew up with, has a son cooling his heels in the state penitentiary right now. At the ripe old age of 24 he decided it was a good idea to rob banks to support his habit. He was stealing from his own parents' savings accounts as well, somehow having found passwords and account numbers to access such. He was a great kid, living in a very rural area - yet somehow heroin found him. Familiar story - started with oxy, got hooked, heroin was cheaper and easier to get. Amazing.

A girlfriend I had before I married my wife has been a lifelong addict (and yes, we did it together sometimes). Today, with the ready availability of the stuff, she has fallen off the radar again. I keep in touch with her brother, also one of my oldest friends, who also happens to be a lifelong alcoholic. Neither one of us, nor her mother, have heard from her in over a year. I often wonder, if the worst happens, how they would even identify her, how they would let anyone know. She'll probably die just another "Jane Doe". Turns out an older brother from their dad's previous marriage sexually abused both of them when they were little. Both, miraculously, have made it into their fifties. I don't see either one making 60. But no one will ever hear about either one of them...

I'm sorry to hear about these people as well. I'm in the proximity of someone dying from addiction on an average of twice a month, I'd say. It's always tragic and those around them always suffer when they're alive and when they die. There is usually plenty of drama to go around, even if it isn't on the evening news. When a public figure dies, you're going to hear about it for a few days. Nothing we can do about that.

I did not know PSH but I know his brother pretty well. He's a great guy who teaches film and screenwriting at USC. They are absolutely gutted like a fish over his brother's death and any attention in the news is just extraneous BS to them, I can assure you. It's no different than any other addict's accidental death. Phil was clean for years, many years...but the beast came back for him and ate him. Fkin' sad.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

I understand and agree Jeff, obviously I would think there is something either in their past or present that causes them to need to fill whatever hole they have with artificial pleasure.

My point though, is that everyone has some issues in their life. Obviously some have more traumatic things happen to them and in those cases I can see where you might give more of a "pass" to drug use, however there are also people who go through the same trauma and come out the other end contributing members of society who don't rely on drugs. What's the difference?

My nurse practitioner told me once that she was raised by an alcoholic father who was verbally and physically abusive to her and her siblings. He died of cirrhosis some years ago and she said many of her siblings and family members are currently alcoholics. Meanwhile, she put herself through nursing school and then nurse practitioner school and now makes nearly 6 figures and is married with a new baby.

What's the difference?

The difference is that she is not an alcoholic. Do you think that it's something that people choose?

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

My point though, is that everyone has some issues in their life. Obviously some have more traumatic things happen to them and in those cases I can see where you might give more of a "pass" to drug use, however there are also people who go through the same trauma and come out the other end contributing members of society who don't rely on drugs. What's the difference?

Brain chemistry and genetics combined with their life experiences. Nature and nurture.

While there are some commonalities, just like any other group of people, there isn't a single reason/cause/description. Maybe you only interact with a subset of the population. Odds are there are plenty of successful people around you that are addicts but you don't know it because they don't exhibit the phenotype you're expecting.

[Nathans_Dad]

Oh I'm sure that's true, NS, I don't have a specific phenotype; my work in rehab has shown me that addicts come in all shapes and sizes.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by speeder

The difference is that she is not an alcoholic. Do you think that it's something that people choose?

No, I think it's something people are probably born with a propensity towards. Whether you give in to that propensity is a choice, however.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

As someone who works in healthcare, I'm certainly more jaded than most when it comes to addictive behavior. I've seen way too many people hurt themselves and their families through their own poor choices.

I work in an addiction unit as a side job, doing medical evaluations and such for them. It seems to me that the common thread I see is that addicts seem to have never learned how to deal with life. They turn to pills or heroin or sex or alcohol or whatever to escape their problems. I see it all the time, the same personality traits lead them to continually ask for other medications and such while they are in rehab for anxiety or stress or small aches and pains.

I think as a society we seem to have decided that life should always be happy and pain or sadness should not exist. If it does exist, then you should be able to take a pill or a drug to make it go away. I don't get that. Life is not all happiness and roses. Life sucks sometimes and the answer does not lie in a pill bottle or a syringe.

Rick- I don't think it could be said any better.