Considering selling my 911 to buy a ..

[crustychief]

.. Cessna 172 or a Piper PA 28. to continue my pilot training. I love my car but I also love flying. I have enough money in my retirement fund to buy a fairly new plane but it would take a big hunk out of the money I have stashed for a comfortable living after I retire. I plan on putting a lot of hours on the plane which would make it cheaper than a rental. I am looking at IFR equipped planes now. there are a lot of pretty decent ones in the 30 -60 thousand dollar range. Any thoughts?

[Bill Douglas]

I was going to say slap your face, until I read the full post. Umm, good idea. How many hours on the plane plane? Or in other words, how many hours before it needs one of those frightening rebuilds?

Edit, an ex GF bought a cessna and leased it back to an aero school. That way it got a spot in a hangar, they maintained it and she got to use "her" plane whenever she wanted it. It just made it a bit more affordable.

[GWN7]

Buying right planes can go up as fast as long hoods.

[JavaBrewer]

Sell the car but don't touch your retirement money. Live your dreams.


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[gordner]

Make sure you really sit down and do the math against rental costs and don't neglect your maintenance budget. I am a maintenance engineer and the ongoing costs of ownership are nothing to laugh at for sure, and insurance and hangarage and so much more lol. One thing I have learned in the industry is that an aircraft is a lovely thing, if someone else owns it. And aircraft values while low now can always get lower, something I have seen many times over.

[Embraer]

if it Flies, Floats or F(*&'s....

[Nostril Cheese]

Whats a rebuild cost on a Cessna?

[futuresoptions]

Experimental?

[rfuerst911sc]

Touching retirement money for any toy in my opinion is a no no.

[recycled sixtie]

If you were going to buy a small plane to build up hours for a flying career it could make sense. However as you are getting closer to retirement(you had mentioned that) it makes no sense to use up a good chunk of retirement money on a plane.

Most of the above posters say to rent which makes sense. You want to build up hours rent a small aircraft. You need instrument time then you have to rent something a bit more sophisticated.

I remember way back I needed to build up my hours- I rented a Cessna 150 from a private person for three weeks. It was way cheaper than renting from a flying school.
Keep your P car. If you sell it you will miss it likely.

If you buy an aircraft I virtually guarantee the following:
- ownership costs are hideous, hangar, insurance, maintenance costs etc
-you won't use it as much as you think you will.
- if you buy a Cessna 172 for example then later you will likely you will wish you had something faster.

The only ownership suggestion above that makes any kind of sense was buying and leasing to a flying school where they supply the hangar and you get to use the a/c.

Overall renting is the most economical and flexible.
Cheers, Guy.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Sell the car but don't touch your retirement money. Live your dreams.





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This.

I had the opportunity several years ago to inherit a V35 Bonanza, an airplane that had a lot of sentimental value. I ended up saying no because I discovered that I couldn't afford it. I did a lot of research on BeechTalk forums regarding operating costs, engine overhaul costs, annual costs, and general maintenance costs. I researched local hangar costs for various airports. In the end, I think it was going to cost around $14k per year just to own it, NOT including flight operating costs. I would strongly suggest that you do the same exercise and then compare it to renting, particularly if you want an IFR traveling platform. You might also consider joining a shared ownership group, which gives you more access to an airplane that you know for less money than sole ownership. Airplanes and flying are amazing, but it's an expensive hobby.

[cashflyer]

I own a couple of planes and maintain our company's helicopter. I *think* I have a pretty good idea of the math that goes into these things.

If you are a licensed A&P who can do the wrenching yourself, owning can make financial sense. At 50 hours per year (more than the national average for owners) you can save about $3000 over the cost of rental on a 172 (comparing my actual expenses against our local FBO rental price). But the minute a repair comes up, you are F'd. You'll drop that $3k and more in a heartbeat if there is any repair that is more than a minor fix.

There is some other very good advice in this thread. IE: Do NOT touch your retirement money, and Buy right.

The Buy Right part means that you should have a professional PPO done by an impartial mechanic (never use the seller's mechanic). Research the plane. Check the internet for photos (owners love to post photos) and compare those photos to what you are buying - see what has changed and ask why. Check the NTSB database. Check the logbooks carefully, then have somebody else check them too. A missed AD can set you back thousands of dollars. Order the FAA report on the aircraft and compare the records that they have to what the seller presents. Etc.

I just sold an IFR equipped 172 about 6 months ago for $35,000. It needed nothing when I sold it and the new owner flew to my place in January to buy me lunch because he was still happy with his purchase. Make sure that you are one of those customers who can be that happy once the money is spent.

Experimental airplanes are another consideration. Sure, you can wrench on them yourself and save some money if you know what you are doing. IMO, experimentals require an even higher level of inspection prior to purchase to be sure you are not buying somebody's half-assed, home depot death trap.

(FWIW, I sold one of my Porsches to pay off my biplane, which is experimental.)

[86930]

I sold my car to buy a Piper Archer about 10 years ago. I never regretted it for a second. I was renting during my flight training, and found the rental schedules/availability frustrating. A plane wasn't available when I wanted, or I had to have it back by a certain time, which made my flight feel too constrained. Sure, you can plan ahead and schedule the time you want well in advance, but I don't think that way. There are times I look out the window and see what a beautiful day it is, so I just go flying.

I also really enjoy the ownership experience. I started out in a community hangar. The cost wasn't outrageous, and I got to know other owners. I also do "owner assist" annuals, which causes you to really know you aircraft, and gives you a much higher confidence level in what you are flying. (How much confidence do you have in that flight school trainer that has had all kinds of pilots?)

So, yes, I am a very happy owner. I actually upgraded to a Piper Saratoga retract about 4 years ago. The price has gone up significantly, but I needed the extra seats to accommodate my family. And, I have been fortunate enough to be a Porsche owner again.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Airplane yes! Leaseback, yes! (Good idea, know several people who do this and plan to do it myself eventually). Touch retirement money to do it? Absolutely stupid.

[id10t]

Keep the p-car, form a LLC wtih a friend, buy a plane together

[creaturecat]

selling an appreciating asset for a depreciating one, yes?

[Seahawk]

Sandy,

Have you tried the North Island Flying Club? Open to active duty and retired.

AOPA Airports: North Island Navy Flying Club at KNZY

No affiliation, but the military flying clubs can be great...I flew with them a loooong time ago. They had a Grumman American that a buddy of mine was checked out in.

In any event, a car is just a car. I know that sound heretical here, but if I hadn't satisfied my flying jones many years ago, I wouldn't think twice: There is always another car, adventures in flight is priceless.

The posts here have been stellar: Pencil everything out, look for fractional opportunities and get as much data as possible. I know a few guys that own airplanes and they love it.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Just to add to my earlier post, consider what airplane you would like to buy then find an owner's forum. When I asked about Bonanza ownership costs on BeechTalk I received a wealth of information, including several owners sending me the spreadsheets that they used to track actual operating costs. They were the single biggest source of good data that helped me make a hard, albeit the right, decision.

[FLYGEEZER]

I'm with Embraer on this issue. If ya really gotta do it...rent it. I learned the hard way. One out of 4 I've owned over the past many years was at best a "breakeven" I have an A&P and have always done my own work..... Just be a hobby flyer ....find an aero club and go enjoy yourself.

[crustychief]

I guess I wasn't really clear on my original post. I am MOST DEFINITELY NOT going to raid my retirement saving. I have been listing pros and cons of ownership vs renting as well as talking with COMNAVHOMEPAC ( my wife ). originally I was researching a Piper colt or a tripacer, I could pretty much get one of those cash as they are around 15-20K. Cheap (relatively) to own but it wouldn't accommodate the family on trips. If I took that money and added the proceeds from the 911 I could get a "family plane" that can handle longer legged flights. I don't really drive the car much, probably less than 2 thousand miles a year.
My abbreviated list of pros and cons. My sons are more than likely to be stationed together at FT Bliss. 5 hours by airplane 12 by car. I could stay there with my own plane. As mentioned above, I could fly anytime. Major overhaul to me is a minor monetary hurdle. I.E. I bought a land rover for just under 50K and sold it 10 years later for 5K, if you look at it like that the airplane is a winner. ( an overhaul is "recommended" at 2000 hours and costs about 12K flying 300 hours per year that would be 7 years until it happened). I work in aviation and my co-workers and company owners all look out the window during the work day and decide to go flying at a moments notice, (we have a Skymaster that is owned by the business family).
I would have to pay for it even if it isn't used. Tie down fees, insurance, loan payment, inspection and other fixed costs do add up. Rentals are a pay per use plus a small club fee and at the end of the day you walk away with no more money out of pocket. clubs have a variety of different aircraft so you aren't married to only one.
I used to belong to the North Island Flying club. I joined so I could fly their T-34's I think they disbanded several years ago 1999, I think. There is a veterans club at Montgomery (KMYF) I have looked at that club as well.
I am going to use my GI bill to get my instrument-commercial-ATP and rotory wing ratings so I will be spending a LOT of time in whatever it is be it a rental or my own. I will stop now because it is getting pretty long.