What happened to honoring your word?

[RonDent]

To say that those days are gone, that is only true because we let them be. People need to be held to their word. Like they also say,"A man is only as good as his word".

[rusnak]

This thread may be the most important one in this forum.

I don't believe you can "hold" a person to his word. You hold yourself to yours. Why? When you are a young man, it's because that's the way you were taught. As you become an adult, it's because that's the way you see yourself. In other words, you've internalized the values that you were taught. You realize that you'd rather be honorable than not.

Sure, you encounter others who are not honrable people and do not keep their word. But that does not change the way you see yourself. Instead, it reinforces the need to be true to your own word. In other words, being burned should illustrate to you why you need honor. When that happens, I stop dealing with people who lie. I try to stay around people who are truthful, which is also why you need loyalty as well.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by RonDent

To say that those days are gone, that is only true because we let them be. People need to be held to their word. Like they also say,"A man is only as good as his word".

The problem is, you can't force someone to keep their word. A verbal contract is just that, verbal. I've always tried to do business with a handshake and my word and it has worked for me for the most part. It just gets frustrating when I find an increasing amount of people can't be trusted to keep their word. I've kept my word even when I know it would cost me money to do so.

[jwhcars]

I have told people that my honesty and integrity are not for sale at any Price !!
I have and still will do a deal on a handshake. Those that have backed out on a deal I tell
them I see that you not an honorable person.

[gacook]

As mentioned already, some of us still believe heavily in this fundamentally ethical practice. The most we can do is work to instill it in our kids, so it never does completely die.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by rusnak

This thread may be the most important one in this forum.

I don't believe you can "hold" a person to his word. You hold yourself to yours. Why? When you are a young man, it's because that's the way you were taught. As you become an adult, it's because that's the way you see yourself. In other words, you've internalized the values that you were taught. You realize that you'd rather be honorable than not.

Sure, you encounter others who are not honrable people and do not keep their word. But that does not change the way you see yourself. Instead, it reinforces the need to be true to your own word. In other words, being burned should illustrate to you why you need honor. When that happens, I stop dealing with people who lie. I try to stay around people who are truthful, which is also why you need loyalty as well.

In my business, I sell about 90% of my equipment out of state. A small percentage of that goes out of country. I've sold machines in Australia, Czech Republic and Mexico. It's not easy but I feel very fortunate that I have customers who will gladly provide a reference if called and they welcome me to give their name if needed.

I've had people send me 70K not knowing me from Adam. I value their trust and I keep in constant contact with them until their machine arrives. I probably rare in that I make calls occasionally to see how the equipment is performing for them. It funny how surprised people are when I call them 30 days after the sale to check up.

[Baz]

My 2 cents:

There have always been unsavory types in society and there always will be.

Doesn't mean it changes who YOU are.

Stick to your value system. The moral compass that always points North. That little voice in your head that tells you right from wrong.

Ultimately we are all a product of our parents' upbringing....how you portray yourself is a direct reflection on your parents.

Now the second part of this is how to minimize further damage from others who go back on their word. Obviously you have to work from signed agreements with deposits and clauses and such. Or you can continue to do business as usual and realize some deals will fall through.

There are plenty of folks left who stand by their word.

Don't let it drag you down, man.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by wildthing

These days are gone.
And we can't
Keep holding on.

-or-

It's nothing personal, it's just business.

-or-

Jerry Maguire: tell me you didn't sign. I'm still sort of moved by your "My word is stronger than oak" thing.

-or-

While no goods or services have been exchanged, the agreement can be cancelled at any time.

Yep - all true. There are those who honor a handshake and a verbal agreement but it is getting rare.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Money talks, bull**** walks.

I expect this and if I want something I expect to pay for it right then and there. Until a payment is made, I don't expect anything from a seller.

It's unfortunate but "lowered expectations" is necessary in this day and age.

I won't do "handshake" deals as a seller either, or tell someone "I'll hold it for you". I tell them honestly whether there have been any other inquiries or not and that if they want it, come get it with cash in hand (or acceptable method of payment). If someone offers a partial payment I tell them that's up to them but I won't hold something based on that - if someone else shows up the next day with full payment I'm taking that and I'll notify and refund them immediately 100%. I think I'm not doing anything wrong by that and I've only had one person get pissy with me about it (sold some bike parts - they left in a huff because I wouldn't wait until he "got paid next" and I got full price later anyway from a different buyer) - it's full disclosure. If someone doesn't like the terms they're welcome to pass and move on. I'm never that desperate to sell stuff that I'll risk reputation or conflict.

That's for stuff - for professional services I'm very strict - an hour to hour-and-a-half free consultation and that's it. After that I write a proposal and wait for a reply. I need an agreement in place. It's actually illegal to render services in some jurisdictions (like CA) without as contract or similar instrument in place. And it's just good business - no headaches and it limits the tire-kickers' damage - by setting the "put up or shut up" point early in it avoids BS-ers from wasting my time.

[RonDent]

No, you can't actually hold a person to their word. But as a businessman, you don't have to do business with them either. Like you said its all about trust. I have to work with Vendors all the time. I won't do business with anyone I don't trust.

[on2wheels52]

Try running a pawn shop for a while and see what percentage of people honor their word (but of course enough do to keep me in business).
I don't make many signature loans anymore.
Jim

[onewhippedpuppy]

Money talks, bull**** walks.



I expect this and if I want something I expect to pay for it right then and there. Until a payment is made, I don't expect anything from a seller.



It's unfortunate but "lowered expectations" is necessary in this day and age.



I won't do "handshake" deals as a seller either, or tell someone "I'll hold it for you". I tell them honestly whether there have been any other inquiries or not and that if they want it, come get it with cash in hand (or acceptable method of payment). If someone offers a partial payment I tell them that's up to them but I won't hold something based on that - if someone else shows up the next day with full payment I'm taking that and I'll notify and refund them immediately 100%. I think I'm not doing anything wrong by that and I've only had one person get pissy with me about it (sold some bike parts - they left in a huff because I wouldn't wait until he "got paid next" and I got full price later anyway from a different buyer) - it's full disclosure. If someone doesn't like the terms they're welcome to pass and move on. I'm never that desperate to sell stuff that I'll risk reputation or conflict.



That's for stuff - for professional services I'm very strict - an hour to hour-and-a-half free consultation and that's it. After that I write a proposal and wait for a reply. I need an agreement in place. It's actually illegal to render services in some jurisdictions (like CA) without as contract or similar instrument in place. And it's just good business - no headaches and it limits the tire-kickers' damage - by setting the "put up or shut up" point early in it avoids BS-ers from wasting my time.

I define integrity as doing what you say you will do. So if you are honest and upfront, I see no issues with your approach.

I have personally held cars for serious buyers on a handshake. I've held cars for weeks with a meaningful commitment like a deposit or plane ticket purchase to come get it. I treat others like I would like to be treated, even if I'm not always treated that way. It's worth it though when I get a thank you from buyers for being honest, forthcoming, and accommodating.

[wildthing]

I've had postings on craigslist where people texted me to meet up and then didn't show. But such is life. I don't let them bring me down.

I do keep my word when I say I will buy something. But like an earlier poster said, you can't expect everyone to be like you.

And I'm assuming when it's serious business or larger sums there's a written or online agreement.

[matt f]

A Handshake, to me, is a bond.
Only the other person can break it.
I have never broken that bond, and I am comfortable with that, and myself.
I have never met Baz, One Whipped or some others but I would not hesitate to do the "handshake" deal with them, either in person or over the phone.
Honor and loyalty are more important to me than money.
My opinion, yours may vary.

Matt

[strupgolf]

Sad about the way it is today. In my world, I say what I mean. I do what I say. And if there is any problem, I'll take care of it. I know it's old school, but if I can teach just one other person to do the same, well that would be great.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by matt f

A Handshake, to me, is a bond.
Only the other person can break it.
I have never broken that bond, and I am comfortable with that, and myself.
I have never met Baz, One Whipped or some others but I would not hesitate to do the "handshake" deal with them, either in person or over the phone.
Honor and loyalty are more important to me than money.
My opinion, yours may vary.

Matt

Thanks Matt...feel the same way, mate! Probably wouldn't surprise you to know I have a 100% eBay rating with over 1K transactions, so hey no worries, right?

In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to do a deal with most of you guys (and girls) here without anything in writing or a deposit.

F.W.I.W. I don't require signatures for my projects and have rarely been burned. I do type up a proposal with exact specs and pricing so there's no misunderstandings. Plus I usually ask for a deposit for anything over $1K. Otherwise I'm proud to say we successfully operate on trust and a handshake. It's not that hard if you do what you say you're going to.

[E38Driver]

I know the feeling. I provided some BMW parts to someone on this site with the promise that he would pay me when he got home from his trip. He is a young person and I felt sorry for him.

Have never heard a word from him again. Emails went unanswered. Karma is a mean B$tch and I am sure it will bite him good.

Dave

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Baz

Thanks Matt...feel the same way, mate! Probably wouldn't surprise you to know I have a 100% eBay rating with over 1K transactions, so hey no worries, right?

In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to do a deal with most of you guys (and girls) here without anything in writing or a deposit.

F.W.I.W. I don't require signatures for my projects and have rarely been burned. I do type up a proposal with exact specs and pricing so there's no misunderstandings. Plus I usually ask for a deposit for anything over $1K. Otherwise I'm proud to say we successfully operate on trust and a handshake. It's not that hard if you do what you say you're going to.

YOu are running a great business buddy. I started working for myself since my second year of college and have been burned a total of four times. One was a very dear friend's sister that had no freaking backbone another time was the PR person for Tom Cruise and many other big name mucky mucks. She was a total looser who lives in a 3 million dollar home that over looks the Getty, but decides to burn us for 7 grand. A couple of people here know me and have continue to use our service from far corners of the country with a hand shake and paper work keeps the misunderstanding from happening like you said. As funny as it might sound, they keep shoving money my way (I am very thankful for that ) before the due date. Damn Porsche owners have too much money. I know of a couple of young guys in their late twenties that are also outstanding and I wouldn't think twice about doing business with them. Good people are still around, and will continue to do well because of their honest ethics. They are out there.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by look 171

YOu are running a great business buddy. I started working for myself since my second year of college and have been burned a total of four times. One was a very dear friend's sister that had no freaking backbone another time was the PR person for Tom Cruise and many other big name mucky mucks. She was a total looser who lives in a 3 million dollar home that over looks the Getty, but decides to burn us for 7 grand. A couple of people here know me and have continue to use our service from far corners of the country with a hand shake and paper work keeps the misunderstanding from happening like you said. As funny as it might sound, they keep shoving money my way (I am very thankful for that ) before the due date. Damn Porsche owners have too much money. I know of a couple of young guys in their late twenties that are also outstanding and I wouldn't think twice about doing business with them. Good people are still around, and will continue to do well because of their honest ethics. They are out there.

Thanks for your comments!

Over all it's good communication that makes it happen. I use email as much as possible to keep everyone posted and updated. It's so easy to do it why not?

7 grand...wow that sucks!

Not sure what your experience has been with the wealthy....but they usually make the worst customers! Big shots who are terrible at paying. It's taken a while but now I add a little extra contingency for the ones who activate my radar....fool me once shame on you....fool me twice....

[Evans, Marv]

I have always been good on my word, but I understand some others won't be. If I have a choice down the line, I won't do any transactions with them ever again. Some years ago I bought a windshield from a guy who was well known and apparently sold a lot over the internet. The windshield arrived shattered and he said he'd send a replacement. Never heard from him again. I got pretty mad about it & contacted the state agency where he lived that said they investigated/mediated things like that. After talking to a person in that agency, I learned they didn't have any authority other than contacting the other party. If the other party never responded, they dropped it. So I asked if they had a recommendation for an attorney local to where the guy lived and got a recommendation. I called the attorney and explained what had happened. He agreed to go after the refund of the windshield and have his paralegal staff handle it for a minimum amount of fee. Long story short, I got my payment back with shipping expenses. It cost me $100 and was well worth it.