My Tesla thoughts after driving one... - Page 3

slodave · slodave's Garage

While the electricity rates can be better in some places, the price of the car stays the same. For those that are in the market here in SoCal, $90,000 is not a number you even blink at, there are other states where that is a big number and one might have to consider selling one of the children.

I think that once the technology becomes more mainstream and affordable to the masses, more people will venture into the electric market, because it is so cheap to charge and the driving ranges are increasing.

campbellcj · 07-06-2014, 08:36 PM

My wife had been saying she wants a Model S but then yesterday she informed me uh-uh -- now she wants an i8. I'm OK with either as she makes good money and puts her cars under her business.

slodave · slodave's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

I think that's it..45kWh.. was supposed to be $65k-ish? (iirc)

Anyway, To me, that cancellation/trend spoke volumes about their future sales. To stay alive they have to compete with Porsche and Mercedes. (not easy in the long run - especially when they (tesla) are not making huge profit on those big-$ (and subsidized) sales ...like Porsche and MBz do w/o huge tax incentives.)

Battery tech has never followed Moore's law (as so much other tech has). Batteries are simply really effn expensive, and I don't see that changing any time soon. :-/ And, if a disruptive battery tech does show up, VAG et al will be all over it. (not much advantage for a CA based old battery car company)

Not finding the price and it's a moot point anyway.

One article mentions that only 5% of the customer base had ordered the 45kW version, which wasn't enough to put it into production. Which is why I think the 60kW ver will drop off at some point down the line, once the Model S has a 100kW ver or whatever. Around here, it's a statement to drive the biggest car. You don't just buy the 85, you buy the P85+, not that those people will ever use the extra power or the suspension tuning of the "+".

Yeah, battery tech is somewhat like the IC engine. Stalled. Small leaps here and there, but largely just there.

I think if the Model S could incorporate solar in the roof to help during the day in charging the 12v for the accessories, that would help with overall range.

A rated 265 miles is still not bad. The i8 22 miles on battery alone. The Nissan Leaf, around 100 miles.

island911 · 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slodave

...

Yeah, battery tech is somewhat like the IC engine. Stalled. Small leaps here and there, but largely just there.

I think if the Model S could incorporate solar in the roof to help during the day in charging the 12v for the accessories, that would help with overall range...

hmm... this is where being an engineer comes across as simply being a turd in the punch-bowl ...or not having hope... :-/ But here goes, again...

a solar panel won't add squat (maybe run the LCD display backlight for a while). -where's Red Beard?

Battery energy density...

(Wikipedia)

I expect that you can see just how far battery tech has to go to compete with, well, just about anything else. ...but at least it's really expensive. ...and still needs a source to charge the thing

island911 · 07-06-2014, 09:19 PM

What I mean to say is that battery technology HAS BEEN in mainstream and affordable to the masses- see cell phone, laptop, tablets.... There has been huge industry pushing for efficiencies and capacities. Tesla has taken those gains and made a bad-ass battery powered car. Just don't expect that the price will come down in a meaningful way. If anyone has any evidence that it will come down, please post. I would love to be better informed.

IOW, it's the battery, stupid. (apologies to Carville)

slodave · slodave's Garage

I'm not an engineer, so I can't really have a discussion on your level.

I'm just an amateur who likes to play with electricity.

I think to even talk solar, one needs to figure out the drain of the accessories. Anyway, maybe one day it can be incorporated to help with the entire system....

I think battery prices for the car market may come down a little if Tesla's Giga-plant comes to fruition. I believe it's Panasonic that supplies the cells to Tesla, which means Panasonic is in it for the profits and even though the two companies probably have quite the deal, Panasonic still make out. If Tesla can make their own cells, then the profit margin will be slashed, probably bringing the cost of the car down.

slodave · slodave's Garage

Okay, so solar in cars is coming back again. I know solar can't power the main motor, but it seems solar can power the A/C system in the Prius and Audi R8. The Leaf uses solar to power the computer system. They are quick to say that the solar won't help with range, but I think it does to a little extent. If you are using the main battery to power the motor and solar to power the accessories, range will go up, albeit slightly (unknown, really at this point).

porsche4life · porsche4life's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner

I'm a traveling sales rep and really would love to own one. think if you buy a $45k car thatget's 20 miles to the gallon in reallife use. I drive 40k miles a year with gas at $4.25 so I will burn $8,500 in gas in one year. If I drove it for 10 years I'm pretty sure that by the time that I write off the mileage that it would earn me money.

Thats assuming you'd keep the car for 400K miles, which we all know isn't happening...

onewhippedpuppy · 07-07-2014, 03:35 AM

Great first person feedback Dave! It definitely sounds like a great, albeit expensive, car for the right situation. It will be interesting to see how far Tesla goes with their supercharging stations. Ultimately that's the only way I see them being feasible as an only car, unless you simply just don't travel.

kaisen · 07-07-2014, 06:14 AM

The Tesla S isn't an economy car, nor an inexpensive car. It's a BMW 6 Gran Coupe, M-B S, Audi A7 competitor; priced similarly, and has similar performance. The efficiency in cost-per-mile may be the attractor, but it's competitive regardless of method of propulsion. I'm sure compared to Dave's family's S550, the Telsa S holds it's own as a car. And clobbers it in efficiency. But was priced similarly, if not less. You can't compare a large sedan that does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds to a Ford Fiesta or Toyota Prius on a cost basis. I'm amazed that you try.

Jim Bremner · 07-07-2014, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche4life

Thats assuming you'd keep the car for 400K miles, which we all know isn't happening...

True, my truck got 22-k my corvette got 110k my Tbird got 100 k (I really hated that car) But my '67fastback Mustang was 440k My Isuzu Troopers (2) each was kept 150k

Right now I have a Sprinter van that's set up as a mobile warehouse is only 3 weeks old with 3,200 miles so far. 24.9 mpg on diesel

sammyg2 · 07-07-2014, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slodave

Okay, so solar in cars is coming back again. I know solar can't power the main motor, but it seems solar can power the A/C system in the Prius and Audi R8. The Leaf uses solar to power the computer system. They are quick to say that the solar won't help with range, but I think it does to a little extent. If you are using the main battery to power the motor and solar to power the accessories, range will go up, albeit slightly (unknown, really at this point).

Solar panels on the roof of an an averaged sized car can run a 40 watt light bulb. If it's sunny outside.

1990C4S · 07-07-2014, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slodave

Okay, so solar in cars is coming back again. I know solar can't power the main motor, but it seems solar can power the A/C system in the Prius and Audi R8.

Absolutely. But the panel is in Arizona and it covers two acres.

rcooled · 07-07-2014, 08:29 AM

My hat's off to Tesla. As you might expect, I see plenty of them running around here in Silicon Valley every day. I think it's pretty amazing that a guy like Elon Musk can basically walk in off the street and start building cars that compete with some of the world's most desirable high-end sport sedans. No need to remind me about the tax advantages that Tesla enjoys...I know that plays a big part in their business model.
If I were the 'Big Three', I think that I'd be getting a bit nervous since I believe that Tesla is now in development with a lower-priced all-electric vehicle that’ll appeal to a broader market. Thank goodness for GM, Ford & Chrysler that so many people still need/want to drive around in pickup trucks.

One thing that I don't care for in the Tesla is that HUGE touch-screen display that controls just about everything. Touch-screens are cool and all that, but I prefer manual knobs and switches in a car. With a touch-screen, you need to take your eyes off the road to touch the right spot and there’s no tactile feel to give feedback. With a smartly-designed manual switch, you can locate and use it while keeping your eyes on the road. I think that the screens are unnecessarily distracting too. It's a minor gripe, and I realize that touch-screens will eventually replace manual switches in most cars before too long anyway. I guess I'll eventually have to get used to them...

onewhippedpuppy · 07-07-2014, 08:34 AM

Electric cars are a very niche market, I don't think Toyota has much to fear from Tesla.

island911 · 07-07-2014, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaisen

The Tesla S isn't an economy car, nor an inexpensive car. It's a BMW 6 Gran Coupe, M-B S, Audi A7 competitor; priced similarly, and has similar performance. The efficiency in cost-per-mile may be the attractor, but it's competitive regardless of method of propulsion. ....

That would be true IF Tesla had the profit margins that BMW and MBz enjoy on their high-end offerings (w/o subsidies).

The biggest threat to the MBz S-class/A7 A8... is govt regulation, not the technology of electrics somehow pushing into competitive territory. The battery tech is simply ungodly expensive for car scale. --Why is that SO difficult for some to accept? Do you think that Hope and Good thoughts (Karma?) will propel the tech to become Magnitudes better?

1990C4S · 07-07-2014, 08:48 AM

Tesla is not without their issue. They have some serious problems with aluminum suspension components (based on what I have heard and read) but it is a very impressive package, even more so given that it's a start up.

island911 · 07-07-2014, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slodave

I'm not an engineer, so I can't really have a discussion on your level.

I'm just an amateur who likes to play with electricity.....

well, I say enjoy this time in space where you get to sport around in a super-low cg car that has gobs of torque and gobs of hope that one day it will be an affordable technology. (the masses apparently really like that stuff)

My guess is that NG is disruptive first. And that Tesla will slide into something other than a dominate car mfg. ...with a high likelihood of becoming something between Fiskar and DeLorean -some cool thinking, but too little for the long haul.

OTOH, maybe Musk will convince the govt to install long stretches of road that parallel the freeways, but are like a slot-car track with charging 'rails' .. and are electrified by cheap NG generators at each site. --who knows...

Time will tell, but change WILL happen (the battery tech just too expensive for big market penetration), so for now, enjoy what you have while you have it.

rusnak · 07-07-2014, 09:08 AM

It's not going to be about the car. It's about the cost of the power delivery system and the energy itself. If you think water is expensive, just wait until we have to pay market prices for energy.

kaisen · 07-07-2014, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

That would be true IF Tesla had the profit margins that BMW and MBz enjoy on their high-end offerings (w/o subsidies).

Who cares how much profit they do or don't make..... you're buying a car. The Tesla is a nice car. It compares quite favorably to a M-B S, Audi A7, or BMW GC 6. That's the only point I'm making. And likely the only point that matters to most consumers when choosing a new car.