What is a trophic cascade and how exactly do wolves change rivers?

[BK911]

I took out 2 deer last rut with my truck, and the wife took out another one in her car.
I am not a hunter either, but after 3 deer in one season, now I let hunters on my property.
Cant get them all, but every little bit helps!

[yazhound]

I think the over population is in large part the result of hunters putting out food plots , whether planted fields or just corn, year round. Very common place where I live. Over fed and no natural predators.

[Don Ro]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

trophic cascade, an ecological phenomenon triggered by the addition or removal of top predators and involving reciprocal changes in the relative populations of predator and prey through a food chain, which often results in dramatic changes in ecosystem structure and nutrient cycling.

First thought I had, too.
.

[Daves911L]

Ah, a "trophic cascade". So thats the new lingo. So I guess us humans, as the top predators being added to systems can also result in trophic cascades? Silly me, I always thought they were just called "farms"!

No doubt the wolves have caused a change in that system, just as any other component added or removed brings a change. But things are never in equilibrium, and it will always continue to change. As do the rivers. Eventually those stabilized banks will become armored, incision will occur, the floodplain will become detached from the hydrology, the trees will die, the birds will leave, and what was once a marsh will be an eroding canyon. Assuming Yellowstone's active volcanic system doesn't change the equation first. So, for an infinitesimally brief fragment of time it all looks pristine and balanced to the eyes of our english accented narrator (who strangely doesn't recognize that deer and elk are not the same), and he can wax poetic about it.

PS. - Gotta love the beaver angle. Beavers build a dam and the result is termed an "ecosystem". Humans build a dam and the result is called a "reservoir"!

[Jeff Higgins]

Jeezus - people actually buy into this rot? Maybe the British accent lends credibility for those who really want to believe this stuff. Just 'cause someone can produce a slick video doesn't mean they have any idea whatsoever what they are talking about, but hey, the bambiists just just love this crap.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Jeezus - people actually buy into this rot? Maybe the British accent lends credibility for those who really want to believe this stuff. Just 'cause someone can produce a slick video doesn't mean they have any idea whatsoever what they are talking about, but hey, the bambiists just just love this crap.

I doubt that. The deer were the problem that the wolves ate into oblivion. The deer are much lower in numbers and the Eco system is better. Bambi lovers would be horrified to see Bambi turned into wolf scat. Bambi is the bad guy in this video.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

Or, how about a nearly naked amazon (dressed in leather straps and carrying some kind of a weapon) walking an Indian path with a pet wolf at her heel....during a full moon!

Wait - wait - wait -- picture this:

A van with a mural of a pack of wolves on the side howling at the moon, in front of which is a half-naked amazonian woman has a leather wrapped weapon in one hand, and is in the arms of Chuck Norris, who is wearing a wizard hat, and playing a cowbell while doing a round-house kick right into Jean-Claude Vandamn's face!

Of course that would be an impossibility - as that scene would be so awesome, the world, including the rivers of Yellowstone, would simply implode...

But the wolves changing the ecosystem of the vast national park - that is pretty awesome too, and if it takes a couple of wolves to keep the deer from eating my expensive landscaping, then sign me up!!

-Z

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Jeezus - people actually buy into this rot? Maybe the British accent lends credibility for those who really want to believe this stuff. Just 'cause someone can produce a slick video doesn't mean they have any idea whatsoever what they are talking about, but hey, the bambiists just just love this crap.

I can't decide if it would be horrible or wonderful to only see life as black and white.

[MRM]

I was thinking that since the deer and coyote were the problem the obvious solution was to drown the area in poison to reduce their population. But I guess the wolf thing works too.

[Jolly Amaranto]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Jeezus - people actually buy into this rot?

They did not make it up. Just took some published articles from various scientific journals and used them to develop the video. There have been plenty of folks documenting this whole thing and watching it closely including the ranchers who's land border the park. A lot of controversy about what to do when the packs venture across onto private land.

[Daves911L]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I doubt that. The deer were the problem that the wolves ate into oblivion. The deer are much lower in numbers and the Eco system is better. Bambi lovers would be horrified to see Bambi turned into wolf scat. Bambi is the bad guy in this video.

No, Jeff just used the term "bambiists" as a catch all for the enviro touchy-feely types. The bad guys in the video are the humans who eradicated wolves from the "ecosystem" in the first place. Our silver tongued limey doesn't say so directly, but the implication is clear that a few wise and thoughtful "bambiists" have saved this treasure for all to enjoy. So, yeah, I agree, Jeesh, what rot!

I'm not in favor of, nor opposed to, wolf re-introduction. We have it here in NM too. But I am against all the touchy-feely crap that goes with it. These are big, fast, highly intelligent predators. Known to bond with humans in the right circumstance. Fully capable of killing and eating humans as well. Our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers went to considerable effort to remove these animals from the landscape, back in the day when people tended not to undertake activities that weren't clearly necessary for daily existence. Good idea to bring em back? I dunno?

It is kind of amusing to see these guys all jazzed up over the "ecosystem" changes (probably intentional hype to make the real bambi lovers feel better). They like this instant in time. But its unlikely to remain static. What happens next in the continuing process? Nature has never been in balance, and never will be.

[afterburn 549]

The earth was just fine till the stupid humans had a better idea of how to run it.
Symbiotic. It works in and with many overtures.
Humans help things to its demise, usually.

[NY65912]

Wolves on a van are nice. But give me a Bald Eagle with a live salmon in it's talons under a full moon.....Merica F yeah!

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by NY65912

Wolves on a van are nice. But give me a Bald Eagle with a live salmon in it's talons under a full moon.....Merica F yeah!

Time to ditch the van - I think a full-on bus would be the only thing that could do justice to your Bald Eagle mural.

Something like this, except with a moon and a live salmon:

[tcar]

Originally Posted by Daves911L

... our english accented narrator (who strangely doesn't recognize that deer and elk are not the same), and he can wax poetic about it.

I noticed that too, but in Britain, deer are called deer, elk are called 'red deer', not elk... so I gave him a pass.

Moose are called (European) Elk...

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by Daves911L

Ah, a "trophic cascade". So thats the new lingo. So I guess us humans, as the top predators being added to systems can also result in trophic cascades? Silly me, I always thought they were just called "farms"!

No doubt the wolves have caused a change in that system, just as any other component added or removed brings a change. But things are never in equilibrium, and it will always continue to change. As do the rivers. Eventually those stabilized banks will become armored, incision will occur, the floodplain will become detached from the hydrology, the trees will die, the birds will leave, and what was once a marsh will be an eroding canyon. Assuming Yellowstone's active volcanic system doesn't change the equation first. So, for an infinitesimally brief fragment of time it all looks pristine and balanced to the eyes of our english accented narrator (who strangely doesn't recognize that deer and elk are not the same), and he can wax poetic about it.

PS. - Gotta love the beaver angle. Beavers build a dam and the result is termed an "ecosystem". Humans build a dam and the result is called a "reservoir"!

Yeah, they found it was tough to preserve wilderness, because when it is managed, suddenly it isn't a wilderness any more. The environment is a pretty dynamic, well... environment.

[Don Ro]

Wilderness engineering...aka, Wilderness Justice.

[nota]

a miss by a wolf and the deer gets away

a miss by a fool with a 30-06 can kill a mile away

we saw a wolf pack way outside yellowstone near cody in june

[Jeff Higgins]

There are as many conclusions being drawn about the ever changing ecosystems in Yellowstone (and elsewhere) as there are people studying them. Disagreement abounds regarding cause and affect. There are, unfortunately, a good deal of politics involved. There are an awful lot of uninformed people choosing which particular scenario they would believe in based purely on emotion, facts be damned. Videos like this serve to reinforce what they think they already "know" about the situation. There is, of course, far more serious and enlightened discussion taking place in the background, but those who have already made up their minds want nothing to do with any of that. Slick videos with English narrators tell them all they need to "know". Those are the folks who are truly living in a "black and white" world. The truth is every bit as gray as these wolves.

And for those of you who so dearly like to type cast and pigeon hole others, let me say I fully support the reintroduction of wolves into their historic environs. Some of my most memorable days afield have been in good wolf country, where we would see them almost daily. Magnificent creatures. They do, however, have to be managed like any other top tier predator. Folks trying to make a living via livestock must be allowed to protect their herds and flocks from them. The politics of the big city wolf lovers, who will only ever see one airbrushed onto the side of a van, need to take a back seat to the needs of the locals who have to deal with them.

And that is where videos like this do more harm than good. Folks who have absolutely no idea what is really going on out there latch onto them as "the truth", and continue to force their opinions (from the comfort of their high rise condos in L.A., New York, Portland, or wherever) upon those who are living with these animals. This video does certainly contain elements of truth, but it goes far beyond that, ascribing massive changes in the environment to a single factor. A single very emotional factor, at least for some. It does a disservice to those who are out there in the woods, fighting the good fight of environmental and wildlife management. It vastly over-simplifies the cause and affect model, energizing the clueless tree hugging bambiists into actions that are in the long run detrimental to their cause.

[pitargue]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

And for those of you who so dearly like to type cast and pigeon hole others, let me say I fully support the reintroduction of wolves into their historic environs.

How about the Grizzly into California. It is after all, on the state flag.

Could me made into a movie like Sharknado. CalGrizzly perhaps?