why does a Canoe scare me?

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

try driving around in an old 911 with a canoe on the roof and a Golden Retriever hanging her head out the passenger window... good times...

Haha, it's got me grinning.

[oldE]

The right canoe can be amazingly stable.

About 30 years ago, friends were visiting, so we took them for a paddle on the Annapolis river (about 1/4 mile wide where we are). Since there were four of us in the 16' canoe, we told PJ, our Lab/Setter mix to "Stay". For a while we saw him trying to follow us along the bank, but then we couldn't see him any more.

We were 2/3 of the way across and sure enough we saw PJ swimming towards us, about half way to the canoe. We doubled back and once I had everyone else set, I grabbed the dog by the scruff of the neck and lifted him aboard. Only problem was a Lab/Setter's coat holds a LOT of water.

One of our friends was sitting in the bottom of the boat and ended up with a wet bottom, but she just laughed and took off her shorts when we made the beach. I suspect dog + water would have been about 70 lbs.

That old tub was stable.

Best
Les

[recycled sixtie]

Is a canoe safe? Depends on the operator(s). One time we were in northern Ontario in the middle of the lake. Out of nowhere comes a power boat and creates a big bow wave. We had to turn quickly into the waves to avoid getting swamped. In hindsight we should have been hugging the shore.

Second time this time with the first wife. Had a few days in Northern Ontario. Had to come back coz we had to work in a couple of days. Tried one day to paddle back to shore in Rock Lake(Algonquin Nat'l Park). Too rough. Had to turn back and camp another night. Tried another day and the waves were almost as high. Headed into the waves and the water was just about swamping us. Hugged the shore line and fortunately reached the dock without incident. Canoe like we had needed those canvas covers to prevent water coming in. There are safer ways to travel on water than an open canoe.

Guy

[jyl]

Sounds scary, and yet those two situations would have been nothing special in an ocean kayak.

It isn't just that canoes are usually open while kayaks are usually closed.

In a kayak, your center of gravity (hips, basically) is very low, maybe 6" above the bottom of the hull. Even if you kneel in a canoe, your CG will be much higher. In a kayak your knees are locked under the cockpit coaming so that you can be rigid with the boat, or torque it with your hips. In a canoe you are flopping loosely around, unless you're strapped down like for competition. In a kayak you have a long double ended paddle, in addition to the advantages in power and efficiency - both from the paddle and from your ability to lock your knees to the boat and use your lower body strength to paddle - the paddle lets you instantly and reflexively brace, whether against a poweboat bow wave or for surfing swells and breaking waves. The canoe paddle is short and has to be lifted and moved from side to side. In a kayak you sit in the center of the boat, regardless of wind, and that long paddle allows you to reach back to steer or correct a broach, reach out to brace, without moving your body. In a canoe, if you're sitting in front to deal with the wind, then have to surf down a big swell, good luck controlling the stern if it starts broaching. In an ocean kayak, you have a long keel that tracks straight, and pedal operated rudder for easy steering and cross wind correction, you just focus your power on forward propulsion. In a canoe, you waste power on steering strokes. I could go on . . .

I see the charm of canoes. If I lived on a lake I'd have a canoe. For calm days. I just think they are to ocean kayaks as a Model T is to a 911.

Anyway, vash, that is why I linked to the second Feathercraft kayak, that can be configured as a double or a single or an open boat ready to load the cooler of beer. Even set up as an open boat, it will run rings around a canoe, especially paddled solo, and especially in more difficult conditions. Then attach the spray deck and you can launch that boat into breaking ocean surf.

The one disadvantage of a kayak is initial stability. They are narrower than canoes, with more rounded bottoms. So they feel more tippy If you're just sitting there, not actively paddling. Like if you're holding a fishing rod instead of a paddle . . . So attach some foam or inflatable sponsons for those situations.

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by jyl

Sounds scary, and yet those two situations would have been nothing special in an ocean kayak.

It isn't just that canoes are usually open while kayaks are usually closed.

In a kayak, your center of gravity (hips, basically) is very low, maybe 6" above the bottom of the hull. Even if you kneel in a canoe, your CG will be much higher. In a kayak your knees are locked under the cockpit coaming so that you can be rigid with the boat, or torque it with your hips. In a canoe you are flopping loosely around, unless you're strapped down like for competition. In a kayak you have a long double ended paddle, in addition to the advantages in power and efficiency - both from the paddle and from your ability to lock your knees to the boat and use your lower body strength to paddle - the paddle lets you instantly and reflexively brace, whether against a poweboat bow wave or for surfing swells and breaking waves. The canoe paddle is short and has to be lifted and moved from side to side. In a kayak you sit in the center of the boat, regardless of wind, and that long paddle allows you to reach back to steer or correct a broach, reach out to brace, without moving your body. In a canoe, if you're sitting in front to deal with the wind, then have to surf down a big swell, good luck controlling the stern if it starts broaching. In an ocean kayak, you have a long keel that tracks straight, and pedal operated rudder for easy steering and cross wind correction, you just focus your power on forward propulsion. In a canoe, you waste power on steering strokes. I could go on . . .

I see the charm of canoes. If I lived on a lake I'd have a canoe. For calm days. I just think they are to ocean kayaks as a Model T is to a 911.

Anyway, vash, that is why I linked to the second Feathercraft kayak, that can be configured as a double or a single or an open boat ready to load the cooler of beer. Even set up as an open boat, it will run rings around a canoe, especially paddled solo, and especially in more difficult conditions. Then attach the spray deck and you can launch that boat into breaking ocean surf.

The one disadvantage of a kayak is initial stability. They are narrower than canoes, with more rounded bottoms. So they feel more tippy If you're just sitting there, not actively paddling. Like if you're holding a fishing rod instead of a paddle . . . So attach some foam or inflatable sponsons for those situations.

Oh yes the beer. I have never operated a kayak but I would think that the amount of stuff you can carry is limited. In our 14 foot canoe we carried wine, beer, groceries basically enough provisions for several days. I would surmise that the kayak is way safer. To add to the woes of a canoe I noticed that some of the modern ones mentioned above are made of very light materials. The effect of the wind and waves I would think would make them less stable.
Guy

[jyl]

My kayak is 17 ft long. I've carried enough in it for five nights camping - including tent, cooking stuff, food and water - about 100 lb. It has to be packed in drybags and stuffed into the ends of the boat. Not as convenient as loading a canoe.

Loaded down like that, the kayak still paddled fine. I made a mistake landing on a beach during that trip. Wave picked the boat up, we surfed onto the beach, but there was a rock outcropping there that I didn't see, and the bow of the boat went straight into the rock, nose-on, while the rest of the boat was lifted up and then crashed back down into the water after the wave broke. Paddled the rest of the way to the sand, no fuss, just cosmetic damage to the nose of the boat. A canoe - well, you wouldn't paddle a canoe ten miles in open ocean anyway, or land through surf, but anyway it would have been ugly.

Quote de jyl

Sounds scary, and yet those two situations would have been nothing special in an ocean kayak.



It isn't just that canoes are usually open while kayaks are usually closed.



In a kayak, your center of gravity (hips, basically) is very low, maybe 6" above the bottom of the hull. Even if you kneel in a canoe, your CG will be much higher. In a kayak your knees are locked under the cockpit coaming so that you can be rigid with the boat, or torque it with your hips. In a canoe you are flopping loosely around, unless you're strapped down like for competition. In a kayak you have a long double ended paddle, in addition to the advantages in power and efficiency - both from the paddle and from your ability to lock your knees to the boat and use your lower body strength to paddle - the paddle lets you instantly and reflexively brace, whether against a poweboat bow wave or for surfing swells and breaking waves. The canoe paddle is short and has to be lifted and moved from side to side. In a kayak you sit in the center of the boat, regardless of wind, and that long paddle allows you to reach back to steer or correct a broach, reach out to brace, without moving your body. In a canoe, if you're sitting in front to deal with the wind, then have to surf down a big swell, good luck controlling the stern if it starts broaching. In an ocean kayak, you have a long keel that tracks straight, and pedal operated rudder for easy steering and cross wind correction, you just focus your power on forward propulsion. In a canoe, you waste power on steering strokes. I could go on . . .



I see the charm of canoes. If I lived on a lake I'd have a canoe. For calm days. I just think they are to ocean kayaks as a Model T is to a 911.



Anyway, vash, that is why I linked to the second Feathercraft kayak, that can be configured as a double or a single or an open boat ready to load the cooler of beer. Even set up as an open boat, it will run rings around a canoe, especially paddled solo, and especially in more difficult conditions. Then attach the spray deck and you can launch that boat into breaking ocean surf.



The one disadvantage of a kayak is initial stability. They are narrower than canoes, with more rounded bottoms. So they feel more tippy If you're just sitting there, not actively paddling. Like if you're holding a fishing rod instead of a paddle . . . So attach some foam or inflatable sponsons for those situations.

Oh yes the beer. I have never operated a kayak but I would think that the amount of stuff you can carry is limited. In our 14 foot canoe we carried wine, beer, groceries basically enough provisions for several days. I would surmise that the kayak is way safer. To add to the woes of a canoe I noticed that some of the modern ones mentioned above are made of very light materials. The effect of the wind and waves I would think would make them less stable.

Guy

[recycled sixtie]

[QUOTE=jyl;8486566]My kayak is 17 ft long. I've carried enough in it for five nights camping - including tent, cooking stuff, food and water - about 100 lb. It has to be packed in drybags and stuffed into the ends of the boat. Not as convenient as loading a canoe.
Jyl I am impressed that you can carry so much. What does your kayak weigh empty?
Guy

[jyl]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by jyl

My kayak is 17 ft long. I've carried enough in it for five nights camping - including tent, cooking stuff, food and water - about 100 lb. It has to be packed in drybags and stuffed into the ends of the boat. Not as convenient as loading a canoe.

Jyl I am impressed that you can carry so much. What does your kayak weigh empty?

Guy

About 55 lb empty. It is one of these, except that mine is 20 years old so is an older model

K1 Expedition*»*Feathercraft

Specs for the current model say payload 385 lb.

[intakexhaust]

This rocked my boat! Went to the Field Museum / Chicago yesterday and this was in the Egyptian exhibit. I would imagine some of the planking is modern to reinforce structure, preserving it.

[oldE]

Spambot reported.

Originally Posted by jyl

The canoe paddle is short and has to be lifted and moved from side to side.

Not true.

You might have to work harder and change sides on a wind on the quarter, but with some experience and the right canoe, you can paddle on one side until your shoulders tire.
Also, in calm water you can go silently without taking the paddle out of the water at all.

Best
Les

[jyl]

Spambot reported.

Quote de jyl

The canoe paddle is short and has to be lifted and moved from side to side.

Not true.



You might have to work harder and change sides on a wind on the quarter, but with some experience and the right canoe, you can paddle on one side until your shoulders tire.

Also, in calm water you can go silently without taking the paddle out of the water at all.



Best

Les

I wasn't clear. I was referring to when the boat is being hit with chop and waves from all sides, like in really confused water. Your paddle is on the right side, suddenly you need to brace on the left. With a canoe paddle you have to lift the paddle and transfer it to the other side, which is much slower than with a kayak paddle which already has a blade on whichever side the brace requires.

I remember having to rescue some friends who had set out in a canoe to paddle a few miles along the shore of Lake Tahoe, the wind came up and there was a lot of power boat traffic, the water got really confused, they were getting hit with 2+ foot chop from every side and had to run for shore. Both are experienced canoe paddlers, in a good boat, they made it about two miles in those conditions. The next year we took ocean kayaks and paddled about 16 miles RT across part of the lake, had the same conditions on the return, no sweat at all.

I think I'm using the term "confused water" correctly. Random waves from every direction, adding to substantial peaks and troughs that are unpredictable and seem to hit the boat without warning.

[nynor]

i went for a dunk in a canoe. water was maybe 45F. i came up and hit my head on the seat of the upside-down canoe. it was super sketchy and i was in about 8 ft of water. like the idiot that i am, no life jacket. yeah, i won't be doing that (no life jacket) ever again. i had hypothermia, which led to some laughs and shenanigans with mrs. nynor.

[john70t]

I spent one of the best summers with my father going down the Huron River.
A three day trip from the origination point near Flint back to Ann Arbor.
The river extends well past into Detroit and Lake Erie.

Look at the distant surface. Predict. And try try to dodge the hidden rocks ahead.
Captain yelling "rock" at the back.
The young bowman still learning.
The labrador retriever leading the way most of the time, swimming full time in the water and running up banks until we finally hauled him up, whereupon he'd crash in a wet heap on the towel on the cold aluminum.
We usually went for a dunk ourselves and just floated with the current for most of the trip.
Warm rippling waters, silky grasses, pesky mosquitoes swarming near dusk.
Watching huge Great Blue Herons in the trees ahead get upset and fly downstream squawking.
Set up the the tent finally at campgrounds, see what is dry left in the pack, try to cook a warm meal on a kerosene stove, before finally curling up in sleeping bags on hard ground exhausted.

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by john70t

I spent one of the best summers with my father going down the Huron River.
A three day trip from the origination point near Flint back to Ann Arbor.
The river extends well past into Detroit and Lake Erie.

Look at the distant surface. Predict. And try try to dodge the hidden rocks ahead.
Captain yelling "rock" at the back.
The young bowman still learning.
The labrador retriever leading the way most of the time, swimming full time in the water and running up banks until we finally hauled him up, whereupon he'd crash in a wet heap on the towel on the cold aluminum.
We usually went for a dunk ourselves and just floated with the current for most of the trip.
Warm rippling waters, silky grasses, pesky mosquitoes swarming near dusk.
Watching huge Great Blue Herons in the trees ahead get upset and fly downstream squawking.
Set up the the tent finally at campgrounds, see what is dry left in the pack, try to cook a warm meal on a kerosene stove, before finally curling up in sleeping bags on hard ground exhausted.

Sounds like fun John.
And well written.
Guy

[oldE]

Spambot reported

Originally Posted by jyl

I think I'm using the term "confused water" correctly. Random waves from every direction, adding to substantial peaks and troughs that are unpredictable and seem to hit the boat without warning.

Yes. That's the term I'd use if I wanted to avoid profanity. In my understanding it comes from wave patterns reflecting off shores and travelling back across the lake. I tend to get "a little nervous" when the water's like that. Definetly not ideal canoe conditions.
Therer's no doubt a lot of folks have gotten into trouble on the water by using the inappropriate craft.

Stay safe.

Les