Foxy Knoxy

[yellowperil]

I understand there might be another verdict coming out tomorrow in a retrial taking place in Italy. Looks like they're going to keep taking her to trial until they get what they want.

She may not be out of the woods just yet. Isn't it a possibility she could be extradited to Italy if found guilty?

She doesn't look like a murderer, but then neither did Scott Petersen at first, until he showed how incredibly stupid he was.

[Craig T]

In 1983 the U.S. signed an extradition treaty with Italy that would allow Italy to request the U.S. return her to Italy. It's only for certain crimes and circumstances, but a murder conviction is one of those circumstances.

If this latest round proves her guilty, and her appeal processes have been exhausted…Foxy Knoxy is taking a one-way plane ride.

[Rick Lee]

Yeah, I think it'd be tough to not extradite her. Just because double jeopardy would apply in our system doesn't mean we get to ignore treaty obligations.

[GH85Carrera]

I bet her lawyer can argue double jeopardy for years in court. All the way to the supreme court. I think she has a case.

[Rick Lee]

I'm sure he'll try just that. I don't understand why any American thinks our law is in effect in other countries. Knox was in Italy at the time of the crime, her arrest and trial. Whatever Italy's justice system's flaws, we have recognized it as a "rule of law" country and signed an extradition treaty with them. I can't see why her extradition hearing will be anything more than a formality:

1) Does the US have an extradition treaty with the country that wants her? Check.
2) Has she been duly charged in that country? Check.
3) Are her human rights likely to be respected while incarcerated? Check.
4) Is she wanted by any jurisdiction in the US that should get first dibs on her? Nope.

What else is there?

[yellowperil]

From the little bit I know about this case (2 books) I got the feeling she wasn't guilty.

Her and her boyfriend had been smokin' too much weed and couldn't keep their alibis straight, and were seen outside playing tonsil hockey while the investigation was going on at 0300 am. Plus I think she signed a confession that she didn't fully understand. So....she could be in trouble.

In her favour, I think, is the fact that they have the murderer in prison now. Might not be enough to save her, though.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I'm sure he'll try just that. I don't understand why any American thinks our law is in effect in other countries. Knox was in Italy at the time of the crime, her arrest and trial. Whatever Italy's justice system's flaws, we have recognized it as a "rule of law" country and signed an extradition treaty with them. I can't see why her extradition hearing will be anything more than a formality:

1) Does the US have an extradition treaty with the country that wants her? Check.
2) Has she been duly charged in that country? Check.
3) Are her human rights likely to be respected while incarcerated? Check.
4) Is she wanted by any jurisdiction in the US that should get first dibs on her? Nope.

What else is there?

There is the expectation that as a U.S. citizen travelling abroad, the U.S. will protect us from egregious foreign prosecution. When foreign law, or foreign legal processes are this far out of bed with ours and therefor violate your rights as a U.S. citizen, I believe those rights take precedence. At least I would hope they do. Membership should have its privileges...

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

There is the expectation that as a U.S. citizen travelling abroad, the U.S. will protect us from egregious foreign prosecution. When foreign law, or foreign legal processes are this far out of bed with ours and therefor violate your rights as a U.S. citizen, I believe those rights take precedence. At least I would hope they do. Membership should have its privileges...

Then what's the point of having an extradition treaty? And how much argument do we put up when other countries refuse to extradite because they don't like our system, which happens plenty in capital cases? What rights do you have as an American in Italy other than access to our embassy and consulate? You should have no rights other than those granted by the host country. It just sounds incredibly arrogant to me that the US thinks our laws supersede those of other countries when our citizens are in those countries. And that goes for Julian Assange too. How in the world is he subject to US law, when he hasn't been to the US, isn't a US citizen and every beef we have with him happened in a third country?

[red-beard]

Rick, from my understanding, the Supreme court recently ruled that the US Constitution trumps treaties. In fact, I think Ted Cruz was one of the attorneys.

Ted Cruz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cruz also successfully defended, in Medellin v. Texas, the State of Texas against an attempt to re-open the cases of 51 Mexican nationals, all of whom were convicted of murder in the United States and were on death row. With the support of the George W. Bush Administration, the petitioners argued that the United States had violated the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations by failing to notify the convicted nationals of their opportunity to receive legal aid from the Mexican consulate. They based their case on a decision of the International Court of Justice in the Avena case which ruled that by failing to allow access to the Mexican consulate, the US had breached its obligations under the Convention. Texas won the case in a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court holding that ICJ decisions were not binding in domestic law and that the President had no power to enforce them.

Hmmmm. Maybe we need to put Ted on the Supreme Court instead of President!

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I bet her lawyer can argue double jeopardy for years in court. All the way to the supreme court. I think she has a case.

From what I read, this is not the case in the Italian judicial system.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Rick, from my understanding, the Supreme court recently ruled that the US Constitution trumps treaties. In fact, I think Ted Cruz was one of the attorneys.

I think that's a very different issue, since state and local courts were charged with violating an int'l. treaty which was entered into by the feds. There was a case in VA on this a few yrs. back where a Peruvian national was on death row for rape and murder. A Wash. Post reporter asked then Governor Jim Gilmore "what kind of message that sends to foreign tourists visiting the US." Gilmore replied, "Don't commit capital murder in VA." States seem totally unconcerned with adhering to the Vienna Convention. But that's an internal issue. Extradition treaties are more political. If we don't hold up our end of the bargain, other countries will follow suit the next time we want someone.

[nota]

the black guy did it !

why the pigs are still messing with her is political and ego driven

she should not be extradited

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I'm not sure what benefit (if any) there would be for us to extradite anyone to Italy. It's not like EU members have jumped to fulfill US extradition requests. Hell, Polanski is still partying it up in France.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Then what's the point of having an extradition treaty? And how much argument do we put up when other countries refuse to extradite because they don't like our system, which happens plenty in capital cases?

The treaty by no means makes it automatic. In every case, there is a good deal of negotiation, legal wrangling, and political posturing. All dependent upon the nature of the case, and just how "high profile" it has become. Time and again we see refusals when our laws do not jive with the law of the country in question, and it has worked both ways.

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

What rights do you have as an American in Italy other than access to our embassy and consulate? You should have no rights other than those granted by the host country. It just sounds incredibly arrogant to me that the US thinks our laws supersede those of other countries when our citizens are in those countries.

We protect our citizens traveling abroad - one of the perks of citizenship. I travel abroad a lot, and we are trained and briefed on where our nearest embassy of military base is from where we are working. We are told to beat feet to either at the first sign of real trouble, with the assurance that they will get us out, or at least protect us. So what if that is "arrogant"; if I ever have to avail myself of that service, you bet your ass I will. Then let it get sorted out once I'm safely home, here in the U.S.

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

And that goes for Julian Assange too. How in the world is he subject to US law, when he hasn't been to the US, isn't a US citizen and every beef we have with him happened in a third country?

He is subject to U.S. law because he was dealing with U.S. property. We guard that at least as zealously (or even more so) than our citizens.

Sometimes it's good to be the biggest kid on the block.

[Rick Lee]

Disagree. It's not any foreigner's job to help the US gov't. keep its secrets. If he ever comes here, then yes, arrest him. AFAIK, Assange never even hacked a gov't. computer, but rather was handed info stolen by others with access. Ain't his job to help the US.

[Jeff Higgins]

It's also not his right to spread those secrets. No matter how they came into his possession, he is responsible for the fact that they are in his possession. Possession of stolen property and all of that - some exceedingly valuable stolen property. He could have returned it and helped lead authorities to those who stole it. The fact that he did not, but rather chose to publicize that stolen information, is where he ran afoul of U.S. law, and what gave U.S. authorities the right to go after him. Regardless of where he was.

[Rick Lee]

C'mon! He's not responsible to keep our govt's secrets. He has no allegiance to the US whatsoever. We don't get to tell foreigners all over the world that they have to obey US law. Likewise, our citizens abroad very much are subject to the laws of the countries where they happen to be, not protected by US double jeopardy in an Italian court.

[JDC PDX]

16 responses to this thread and no pictures of Foxy Knoxy... You guys are slipping.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Why doesn't she just disappear to Mexico or Brazil? Very unlikely that those countries would ever extradite to Italy (not sure if there are any formal agreements but I doubt it's enforced even if so). I'd have to think she's probably sick and tired of dealing with the nonsense from U.S. and Italy both, and at some point would like the opportunity to pursue a somewhat more normal life...

[Scuba Steve]

Originally Posted by JDC PDX

16 responses to this thread and no pictures of Foxy Knoxy... You guys are slipping.

I checked the thread to try and figure out how foxy she is, but no such luck. The world will never know.