Considering a .223/5.56 AR Alternative - Thoughts?

[john70t]

Your best safety is your eyes, ears, knowledge, and strategy.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by Paul K

Sounds like an aftermarket drop-in trigger would be a great business opportunity!

I hear the Tavor also damages the brass as it's ejected- making relaoding difficult at best.

Pity, the gun seems like a great idea!

I think the issue is a problem inherent in the design of the bullpup configuration.

[MMiller]

Originally Posted by cstreit

Tell me about this please!

Standard AR platform chambered in 9mm, takes Uzi mags. Shorter 10 rd mags are available but expensive.

Crappy quick pic..

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Considering a .223/5.56 AR Alternative - Thoughts?

I'm considering purchasing another "modern sporting rifle" (whatever that means) to diversify beyond 2.23/5.56. I was looking at the AR style 7.62x39 variants, but have seen some feedback indicating the superiority of .300 Blackout or .308 in an AR style rifle. Any suggestions as to the pros/cons of these different calibers and some reasonably priced ($1000-ish) options of choice? Application would be fun target shooting and killing zombies (of course).

You can find an AR style rifle in .308 (AR-10) for around $1K. It won't be a name brand.

You might consider a bit more money and buy a FN-FAL. And maybe a bit more money and buy an M1A (semi-auto M14).

[varmint]

Originally Posted by fred cook

I have one of these chambered for the 7.62 x 39 round. It takes the standard AK style mags so there are lots available at low prices. This rifle is a clone of the HK91, uses a roller delayed blowback type action. Recoil is tolerable, more so than the same gun in .308. I also had one of the Spanish made guns in 7.62x51 but sold it after shooting the the one in 7.62x39. This rifle gives you the advantage of a .30 caliber bullet weighing around 125 grains vs 55 or 62 gains in the 5.56. Also, the sights are like the HK91 sights, a rear drum that has 4 different apertures making sight adjustment easy and quick. I also have an AR rifle, but in an emergency would probably grab the PTR91 first. Try it, you will like it!

PS: Before you buy a 7.62 x 51 (308), borrow one and put 100 rds thru it as quickly as you can change mags. I bet you won't want to shoot any more right then! Recoil is "substantial"!

thanks. that's what i wanted to know.

[flipper35]

There is always GA Precision.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Paul K

I hear the Tavor also damages the brass as it's ejected- making relaoding difficult at best.

I remember way back when the HK91's were first introduced, they were accused of damaging brass due to their lengthwise striated chambers. They did this to reduce friction on extraction. The brass sure looked like hell, but it turned out it was entirely reloadable.

Originally Posted by red-beard K

You can find an AR style rifle in .308 (AR-10) for around $1K. It won't be a name brand.

You might consider a bit more money and buy a FN-FAL. And maybe a bit more money and buy an M1A (semi-auto M14).

I went the M1A route with the wood stocked "Scout-Squad" version. I absolutely love that rifle. I have found, however, that it is a brass destroying beast. I had no idea before I bought it. The brass looks great as it gets shot - certainly far better than what the HK91 spits out - but looks can be very deceiving.

Due to the nature of how this rifle cycles, it stretches brass considerably upon firing and ejecting. We consider "normal" stretching for centerfire rifle brass to occur at a rate that requires trimming the brass about every 8 to 12 reloads. "Hotter" (higher pressure) rounds can drop that to 2-3 reloads per trim. Older style, extremely tapered cases (.300 and .375 H&H), although operating at lower pressures, will need to be trimmed every 2-3 reloads as well. Really modern, steep shouldered brass (.22 and 6mm PPC's, etc.) never get trimmed, even operating at higher pressures. I's kind of a function of case shape and pressure - more taper and/or more pressure, more brass flow and more trimming.

Well, the .308 is a "modern" (relatively straight, non-tapered) bottle necked case, operating at moderate pressure. It lives forever in bolt guns. I now have a several 50 round "lots" (MTM plastic boxes full) that I just reloaded - and trimmed - for the third time. It looks like a 1:1 ratio. We throw out centerfire brass after its third trimming; too much brass has flowed forward, and we are looking at incipient head separation just in front of the solid head area of the case. So, wow - three loads per case, then crunch 'em and toss 'em. Ouch. Kinda spendy... I have black powder .45-70 and .45-100 cases into their second hundred loadings...

Oh well, that's all only pertinent if you reload. How are the AR's on brass? Do they chew through it like that, or are they better?

Oh, and one final note: Don't let the tales of .308 "recoil" put you off. Yes, in a light hunting rifle, its cumulative affect will take its toll. But that's not what we are talking about here; we are talking 10 pound gas operated semi-autos. I would honestly categorize the recoil of my M1A as "virtually unnoticeable". And that's not some macho man tough guy blather - I hate recoil as much as the next guy. Yes, I bang away with the big thumpers (.375's, .458's, etc.), but I fully understand the affects that has had on me, try to minimize my time with them, and actually have to work my way back up to them when they have sat idle for awhile. A ten pound gas operated .308 ain't even close to the same league - if you can shoot a light little .22 all day long, or a light little .223 carbine all day long, you will have no trouble mastering an M1A or similar full size rifle.

[911boost]

I agree with Jeff, my M1A doesn't kick that bad at all.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

I think the issue is a problem inherent in the design of the bullpup configuration.

It depends if the trigger group linkage is a push or pull type.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I remember way back when the HK91's were first introduced, they were accused of damaging brass due to their lengthwise striated chambers. They did this to reduce friction on extraction. The brass sure looked like hell, but it turned out it was entirely reloadable.





I went the M1A route with the wood stocked "Scout-Squad" version. I absolutely love that rifle. I have found, however, that it is a brass destroying beast. I had no idea before I bought it. The brass looks great as it gets shot - certainly far better than what the HK91 spits out - but looks can be very deceiving.

Due to the nature of how this rifle cycles, it stretches brass considerably upon firing and ejecting. We consider "normal" stretching for centerfire rifle brass to occur at a rate that requires trimming the brass about every 8 to 12 reloads. "Hotter" (higher pressure) rounds can drop that to 2-3 reloads per trim. Older style, extremely tapered cases (.300 and .375 H&H), although operating at lower pressures, will need to be trimmed every 2-3 reloads as well. Really modern, steep shouldered brass (.22 and 6mm PPC's, etc.) never get trimmed, even operating at higher pressures. I's kind of a function of case shape and pressure - more taper and/or more pressure, more brass flow and more trimming.

Well, the .308 is a "modern" (relatively straight, non-tapered) bottle necked case, operating at moderate pressure. It lives forever in bolt guns. I now have a several 50 round "lots" (MTM plastic boxes full) that I just reloaded - and trimmed - for the third time. It looks like a 1:1 ratio. We throw out centerfire brass after its third trimming; too much brass has flowed forward, and we are looking at incipient head separation just in front of the solid head area of the case. So, wow - three loads per case, then crunch 'em and toss 'em. Ouch. Kinda spendy... I have black powder .45-70 and .45-100 cases into their second hundred loadings...

Oh well, that's all only pertinent if you reload. How are the AR's on brass? Do they chew through it like that, or are they better?

Oh, and one final note: Don't let the tales of .308 "recoil" put you off. Yes, in a light hunting rifle, its cumulative affect will take its toll. But that's not what we are talking about here; we are talking 10 pound gas operated semi-autos. I would honestly categorize the recoil of my M1A as "virtually unnoticeable". And that's not some macho man tough guy blather - I hate recoil as much as the next guy. Yes, I bang away with the big thumpers (.375's, .458's, etc.), but I fully understand the affects that has had on me, try to minimize my time with them, and actually have to work my way back up to them when they have sat idle for awhile. A ten pound gas operated .308 ain't even close to the same league - if you can shoot a light little .22 all day long, or a light little .223 carbine all day long, you will have no trouble mastering an M1A or similar full size rifle.

I grew up with a 760 Carbine in 30-06 with a 4x scope. It is light and great for in the woods and I never thought the recoil was that bad even after spending a day at a range with it. I would think a 7.62x63 would kick more than the 7.62x51, especially in something as heavy as an M14/M1A.

A Mini-14 and M1A are on my list as well as a Garand. Our son likes the AR platform.

For the range only 7.62x39 would be fine I would think as well. The recoil on those are very mild.

[Rapewta]

Ammo prices keep going up, as we all have seen in the last decade.
That is why I have stayed with the 5.56 chambered Ranch Rifles.
It would be nice to have something like a .308 of .338 but then I would not be going to the
range as much because of the costs.

I always take the 10/22 along for the ride because even tho 22LR prices have gone up, they are still below .10 per round.

I shoot a lot of 22LR when I first get to the range. 50 & 100 yards. It gets rid of the "shooting Jones" and then I shoot .223/5.56.

I like he Mini's. Reliable and a simple Garand rotating bolt design.
Detachable mags, semi-auto and they just don't look scary to some people like the
AR Black Sporting Rifles.

If you are on a budget, like I am, then stay with the affordable .223.

[onewhippedpuppy]

My wonderful wife, who I do not deserve, surprised me last night with a PS90. She's on a roll, last Christmas it was a Sig P226.. I can't wait to hit the range with this thing.

[chocolatelab]

That PS90 looks crazy

What makes it special?

[MMiller]

Awesome....interested in hearing the range report

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by chocolatelab

That PS90 looks crazy

What makes it special?

Compact and balanced between your trigger hand and the shoulder. Low recoil and ambidextrous. The energy is about the same as a 22WSM.

[aigel]

That is awesome. Not much changed in weapons tech over the last 100 years. The PS90 definitely is different from the usual layouts! I love the way they engineered the magazines.

G

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Ok, it's either a Mini 14 ( Ruger Ranch) in .223 or a lever action .357........I have the urge. A better option would be the Ruger Ranch in .357. That would get me over my stroke depression. Getting a driving privileges back would help also.....they doan tell ya about that up front..... Taint in the old fart handbook

The downside is our local range.......English Pit......it's a big hole in a ex gravel pit..no sun.....it's colder than a witches tit in that hole.

Take a look at the Mini 30 if you like the Mini 14

[onewhippedpuppy]

After an afternoon and evening at my in-laws' in central KS shooting, I officially love the PS90. I put a Bushnell TRS-25 mini red dot on the rail and after getting it sighted in, the thing is dead on at 50 yards. Zero recoil and almost as quiet as a .22, which was a surprise. It is very ergonomic and comfortable to shoot, everyone that shot it (including my 11 year old) genuinely liked shooting it. Very highly recommended!

[911boost]

Great Matt, I am glad you like it. I have been very pleased with mine.

Bill

[id10t]

Mini-14? You can shoot the barrel out on the "old but not original" style in about 3000 rounds. Series 180- was the first, with wood hand guards. Newest (3rd gen) has the thicker barrel ...

762x51? Look at the FN-FAL . Not teh most accurate, but super reliable, and nicer than an AK. There is a guy in Utah producing 22lr conversion kits now, for "cheap" practice...