Considering a .223/5.56 AR Alternative - Thoughts?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by varmint

i know nothing about this company. just looks interesting. and i want someone to buy one and tell me about it.

However a quick peek at gunbroker and even these run $700-$1000.

I bit beyond my 'toy' budget.

[gogriz91]

.308 in an AR variant seems like the way to go, ammo availability, different loads etc create a lot of options.

I prefer AKs, Russian or Bulgarian are better quality builds and ammo is cheap by comparison. VEPR makes some nice sporters in .308 or 7.62 x 54R too.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

However a quick peek at gunbroker and even these run $700-$1000.

I bit beyond my 'toy' budget.

CDNN has them at a reasonable price right now...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by id10t

Mini-14? You can shoot the barrel out on the "old but not original" style in about 3000 rounds.

What makes you say this?

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

What makes you say this?

Owned one, and shot the barrel out. As it perfect key hole silhouettes of the bullets at 10 paces.

Did take mostly rapid fire - like "don't touch the barrel for an hour it is damm hot" rapid fire. Scored 3 1600 round cases of the yellow box Norinco stuff that smelled like cat piss when shot on a trade. 300 to 500 round rapid fire sessions several times a month. Went from hitting a rock the size of a VW bug at 500 yards across a water filled lime stone pit to missing by 50-100 feet in all directions. Set up a target at 10 yards or so, got perfect key holes. Barrel shot out, had just opened the last of the 3 cases.

The 94 ban just happened, so I sold my high cap Ruger mags and used the $ to buy an Olympic Arms AR, figuring that if I shot the barrel at least it wouldn't require a trip to the factory to replace.... a year later sold the AR and a Glock and a ton of extra mags for almost enough to afford my first FAL ...

[Tobra]

So you think that shooting thousands of rounds of crappy ammo so fast it repeatedly makes the barrel red hot is a problem with the weapon, really? If you ran your car with a blown radiator and you warped the head would you think it was just because it was a crappy car?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by id10t

Owned one, and shot the barrel out. As it perfect key hole silhouettes of the bullets at 10 paces.

Did take mostly rapid fire - like "don't touch the barrel for an hour it is damm hot" rapid fire. Scored 3 1600 round cases of the yellow box Norinco stuff that smelled like cat piss when shot on a trade. 300 to 500 round rapid fire sessions several times a month. Went from hitting a rock the size of a VW bug at 500 yards across a water filled lime stone pit to missing by 50-100 feet in all directions. Set up a target at 10 yards or so, got perfect key holes. Barrel shot out, had just opened the last of the 3 cases.

The 94 ban just happened, so I sold my high cap Ruger mags and used the $ to buy an Olympic Arms AR, figuring that if I shot the barrel at least it wouldn't require a trip to the factory to replace.... a year later sold the AR and a Glock and a ton of extra mags for almost enough to afford my first FAL ...

Shirley you understand this was operator exuberance at play, and nothing really wrong with the rifle. Nothing is going to put up with that kind of abuse.

I maintain I can ruin anyone's brand new rifle in two boxes of ammo or less. At least noticeably diminish its accuracy. It's all about heat and resultant erosion in the throat area. One of the design and performance criteria for military rounds is to minimize this effect under the strain of constant, rapid fire. That's why we see them configured to be at the lower end of useful case capacities relative to their bore sizes. The .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 can live a very long and happy life if treated with any sort of care and respect. A semi automatic .220 Swift or .30/378 Weatherby wouldn't get through the first magazine before the barrel was shot out.

The only rifle barrels I've personally managed to "shoot out" have been screwed onto a Ruger #1 action and chambered in .220 Swift. First one was the factory barrel about 30 years ago, when I was still learning about such things. I well and truly toasted it in about 1,500 rounds. Just shooting too fast and letting it get too hot. The next one, a stainless Lilja, went over 8,000 under much better care and attention. The current Lilja has a couple thousand through it, and still shoots quite well. I don't even let it get warm... That's what .223's are for...

[MotoSook]

You mentioned the AKs feel cheap, but probably haven't tried a milled receiver AK. They've gotten expensive but you can get a milled receiver VZ for less than $400. It is a milled steel receiver carbine modeled after the AK but IMO better. It's lighter, more compact and shoots the same ammo.

I waited and watched the web for an under-folder milled AK but the price point never got to where I wanted to pay up. So I tried a side-folder VZ...liked it and bought a couple more! Found a a real Czech army armorer's kit (crate of parts and mags) at a gun show and bought it. Have not wanted an AK since.

About a year or so ago you could get a VZ with five aluminum mags for $400. Now they are going for about $389 with one or two mags. Still a good deal. The mags are not compatible AK to VZ.

I've taken a few apart and they are simple and easy to clean. They don't have the aftermarket that the AKs do but I'm not trying to be tacticool.

I have ARs in .223, .300 and .308...but I like shooting the VZ. Cheap and effective! ARs in 7.62x39 haven't been proven reliable. .300 Blk are expensive as you say, and I'm not impressed with the .223 round. Can't even go throughly 1x4 cedar planks that were left out to dry on my range! Not what I'd want for zombies or any of that crazy apocalyptic scenario.

When you get tire of shooting the PS90 check out the VZs.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by MotoSook

You mentioned the AKs feel cheap, but probably haven't tried a milled receiver AK. They've gotten expensive but you can get a milled receiver VZ for less than $400. It is a milled steel receiver carbine modeled after the AK but IMO better. It's lighter, more compact and shoots the same ammo.

I waited and watched the web for an under-folder milled AK but the price point never got to where I wanted to pay up. So I tried a side-folder VZ...liked it and bought a couple more! Found a a real Czech army armorer's kit (crate of parts and mags) at a gun show and bought it. Have not wanted an AK since.

About a year or so ago you could get a VZ with five aluminum mags for $400. Now they are going for about $389 with one or two mags. Still a good deal. The mags are not compatible AK to VZ.

I've taken a few apart and they are simple and easy to clean. They don't have the aftermarket that the AKs do but I'm not trying to be tacticool.

I have ARs in .223, .300 and .308...but I like shooting the VZ. Cheap and effective! ARs in 7.62x39 haven't been proven reliable. .300 Blk are expensive as you say, and I'm not impressed with the .223 round. Can't even go throughly 1x4 cedar planks that were left out to dry on my range! Not what I'd want for zombies or any of that crazy apocalyptic scenario.

When you get tire of shooting the PS90 check out the VZs.

I think you can get an AR style collapsing stock for the milled receiver.

[red-beard]

And here is an under-folder designed for the milled receiver.

http://www.copesdistributing.com/bulgarian-underfolding-stock-hardware-milled-receiver-p-1046.html

[MotoSook]

Originally Posted by red-beard

And here is an under-folder designed for the milled receiver.

Bulgarian AK-47 Underfolding Stock W/ hardware for Milled Receiver, Cope's Distributing

Great. Now sell me the milled AK you bought from Tabs years ago for cheap

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by MotoSook

Great. Now sell me the milled AK you bought from Tabs years ago for cheap

What are you talking about? I have no recollection...

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by red-beard

What are you talking about? I have no recollection...

You're gonna make a fine president

[Paul K]

FWIW, I'm going to put a Timney trigger in my Colt AR this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes, but since the stock setup is absolutely rubbish and the video shows it being more akin to a 1911, I am hoping it will be a worthwhile upgrade!

http://youtu.be/F9WC9r3Tvuc

[Paul K]

Update on Timney trigger:

It's bucking frilliant. Night & day difference. Fairly easy install, although one part shot out with such force that it dented the drywall above my work bench & zinged off across the garage. Trigger pull is now more like a proper rifle, with minor take up and a very clean break at 3lbs.

Cheapest I found was $180. Well worth it!

Cheers,

Paul.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Paul, do you have a link? Sounds like a worthwhile investment.

[Paul K]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Paul, do you have a link? Sounds like a worthwhile investment.

I got mine from otmtactical.com