sure to be a hotbutton issue: dontmarry.wordpress.com

[GH85Carrera]

I have to assume that ones exposure to successful marriage or divorce colors ones views.

My grandparents on both sides made it to more that 50 years of marriage.
My parents were married for over 50 years of marriage.
My brother has been married for over 40 years.
My wife's brother has been married for over 40 years.
I married late in life because it took me longer to find my wife so I am the newbie with just 24 years working on 25 years for us.

As a kid I grew up in the Leave it to Beaver world. All my friends had two parents at home, Mom & Dad. Dad worked and mom was at home when we get home from school. I was probably in 6th grade before I had ever heard of divorce.

I understand that is not the way the world operates now. People get married and divorced at the drop of a hat now.

[BE911SC]

"If it flies, floats or fu**s you're better off renting it."

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

It happens every day Rick - that's kind of the point here. A person can have a "bad hormone day" and REALLY screw up another's life for any reason or no reason at all at any time. Marriages have really turned into time bombs - enabled by a very greedy and predatory legal services industry. People change and people do some really crazy, weird and unexpected stuff sometimes. The laws we have enable a helluva lot of potential damage (directed almost solely at males). Heck, criminals get off easier than some guys I know that did nothing wrong other than having former spouses who got bored, wanted a change, didn't feel like standing by them through a difficult time, whatever. None of these are valid "fault" reasons for divorce but "no fault" laws don't require a reason other than "irreconcilable differences" and if one person says they want out and the other one says "WTF - I want to stay together and work at it" then guess what? That's an irreconcilable difference in the eyes of the courts and it's an automatic grant of motion and the guy gets shellacked - systematically and with machine-like precision. I've witnessed this first hand with two very close family members and a handful of friends. The system is shockingly automated and ruthlessly efficient at dismantling a man's life, income, assets and future. I never thought government could be so efficient until I saw it happen and heard the horror stories myself!

I have witnessed women getting by far the short end of the divorce stick - anecdotal evidence - and I thought you knew something about how to debate.

A lot of people on here (who probably didn't even read the original article) seem to get SO defensive about this to the point they try to deflect the discussion into personal attacks or assumptions about what other peoples' personal situations are (like they even matter). I get very amused at some of the assumptions FP and others here make about me - they're completely wrong and I often enjoy good laughs over their assumptions). Peoples personal situations have nothing to do with this original point is and remains that men are extremely vulnerable given the current state of laws surrounding this institution.

But you just made this about people's personal situations - see paragraph above.

At the end of the day people just don't like being confronted with realities that they're not comfortable with (the "inconvenient truth" phenomenon - people will create vehement denials and elaboraterationalizations rather than waking up to basic realities, even when presented with overwhelming evidence). Humans are curious - they'd rather bury their heads in the sand, pretend everything is fine and that anybody who hasn't been as lucky as they are (up to now anyway) obviously did something wrong.

Every situation is different and unique, just as all people are - you are the one in error trying to stereotype women as unscrupulous and callous. There are plenty of men and women out there who navigate the perils of marriage and divorce without capsizing, your continued broad brushing of 'women bad - men helpless' is what many here have issue with.

The reality on this particular issue is that people who do absolutely nothing wrong end up having their lives, retirements, incomes, savings and families destroyed every day simply to support a bunch of greedy lawyers and people who just want a free ride on someone else's back. It's truly shameful and IMHO one of the biggest embarrassments "American culture" presents.

So - now the blame reaches out to greedy lawyers as well.

So, in your 'blame tree' we have 'callous and evil women,' 'power hungry politicians,' and 'greedy lawyers'. What other branches should you add - in-laws, friends, of course 'society as a whole'?

You want to blame everyone except yourself... Again, the only people who can make a marriage work are the two people in the marriage - everything else is just an excuse. Choosing unwisely regarding a commitment of the magnitude of marriage is something you do, and trying to blame others really shows how little you are willing to be accountable for your own actions.

Then again if you believe the vitriolic rants from FP (who repeatedly claims to "love men" yet oddly views them all as potential wife-beating ogres) it's fine for women to destroy mens' lives because, presumably, they deserve it and even if they don't, some other men in the past did and hey - that's good enough. I wonder who pays for all her nice shoes, cars and other stuff... Hmm... Puzzle pieces seem to be falling into place... I'll stop there.

vitriolic rants from FP - Really - I think if you look over my posts there is very little stereotype vitriol and I will let everyone else judge the level of 'rant' comparing my posts and yours.

Very few men are wife beating ogres - very few are even potential wife beating ogres - I have never indicated they were. There are wife beating orges in the world, but I don't judge all men by a very small minority, unlike you who measure all women by the actions of a few.

Oh, while I love me some Jimmy Choos - I be the one that buys them. I made slightly more than my ex by the end of our marriage - I got no alimony, and I certainly didn't ask for any, and received less than $200 a month (most months - there were certainly times when I didn't get any because of financial difficulties that my ex would run into occasionally) child support for the kids until they graduated high school. Nothing for their college expenses. He loved his job, and although it paid poorly, it was great that we could have my salary to bear over half of the expenses. Everyone should do what they love - and if, as a couple, you can work that out - it is great.

To you and everyone else in wedded bliss - congrats and good luck. I really hope it works out well for you even though statistically it won't. I sincerely hope you beat the odds and that if you do get a "surprise" it happens early enough in your lives where you can possibly recover from it and eke out a semi-decent life and maybe even a retirement someday. I have a couple of people close to me who weren't so fortunate.

Funny how you think marriage is all about luck and surprises. If you take your time, choose wisely, and enjoy a long lasting relationship, you know that luck has almost nothing to do with it - it is work, with a wonderful reward. And should it end in some sort of 'surprise' it won't end up destroying your life - again if you choose wisely.

[Baz]

Heard a good one on the radio today....

"Bitterness is like swallowing a poison pill and expecting the other person to die."

Let that sink in......

[EMJ]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

what?

i don't enjoy gambling, but i don't think it should be illegal.
i'm not a cyclist, but i don't think biking should be illegal.
i don't smoke pot, but i think it should be legal to do so.

i personally don't see a reason to get married, but homosexuals shouldn't be denied the right to if they want to.

you could have simply answered with "yes" to my question. its obvious you cannot grasp the concept that one could separate personal decision making, with enforcing your moral choices on everyone else.

You, without any concept or knowledge of being married, are forcing your ill informed views of how horrible the marriage concept is onto everyone. I could care less if you marry or not, but I do take umbrage with you calling those who choose to be married, idiots. You've probably never even had a girlfriend. The primary reason for your disgust with marriage is women. It's very clear.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I have to assume that ones exposure to successful marriage or divorce colors ones views.

My grandparents on both sides made it to more that 50 years of marriage.
My parents were married for over 50 years of marriage.
My brother has been married for over 40 years.
My wife's brother has been married for over 40 years.
I married late in life because it took me longer to find my wife so I am the newbie with just 24 years working on 25 years for us.

As a kid I grew up in the Leave it to Beaver world. All my friends had two parents at home, Mom & Dad. Dad worked and mom was at home when we get home from school. I was probably in 6th grade before I had ever heard of divorce.

I understand that is not the way the world operates now. People get married and divorced at the drop of a hat now.

I'm only 44 and that's pretty much how I grew up. My folks are high school sweethearts and have been married for 48 yrs.

[EMJ]

Originally Posted by aschen

Im all for gays getting married if they like.

Ideally the discussion of marriage choice could be neutral with regard to orientation. However, the original linked article is very clearly directed at straight men, the misogyny is not veiled or implied or even apologetic about it.

again its clear some of yall are just looking for an argument, which is fine I guess.

The "misogyny" I'm referring to has nothing to do with the article, but instead some of the posters. Apparently, only women screw men in their marriages and divorce them for no reason at all. Of course, no man ever left his wife and kids for some side piece or decided he wanted to "find" himself. Taking it deeper, apparently, no married man ever left his husband for no apparent reason. It's a double standard, and a very shallow argument, hence where the orientation distinction comes in.

And for the record, I'm all for anyone marrying anyone. None of my business.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by EMJ

You, without any concept or knowledge of being married, are forcing your ill informed views of how horrible the marriage concept is onto everyone. I could care less if you marry or not, but I do take umbrage with you calling those who choose to be married, idiots. You've probably never even had a girlfriend. The primary reason for your disgust with marriage is women. It's very clear.

no, im forcing nothing on anyone. i didn't call anyone an idiot, other than you, because you clearly cannot separate someones personal decisions, from what should be legal or not.

me and my GF will have a pretty good laugh at you over dinner tonight. lol.

[EMJ]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

no, im forcing nothing on anyone. i didn't call anyone an idiot, other than you, because you clearly cannot separate someones personal decisions, from what should be legal or not.

me and GF will have a pretty good laugh at you over dinner tonight. lol.

Girlfriend? Sure... You can call me all the names you want, but you're not fooling anyone. Anyone who calls marriage "legal blackmail" for a woman to take advantage of us old Neanderthals is pretty ignorant. I look forward to your next thread on the subject.

Btw, I'm sure your "GF's" parents love you: you won't marry their daughter, you won't give them any grandchildren, and you hate women. A true catch.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by EMJ

Girlfriend? Sure... You can call me all the names you want, but you're not fooling anyone. Anyone who calls marriage "legal blackmail" for a woman to take advantage of us old Neanderthals is pretty ignorant. I look forward to your next thread on the subject.

Btw, I'm sure your "GF's" parents love you: you won't marry their daughter, you won't give them any grandchildren, and you hate women. A true catch.

she doesn't want children. i don't date women who want children because i don't want children. her parents must hate her too.

so because i don't want children and thus see no real purpose to marriage, i must hate women. yup, that makes perfect sense.

you are something else EMJ, you are something else. 0/2 but swinging for the fences with the insults.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

As said above it's funny (sad funny) that people ASSume so much when confronted with inconvenient truths. They squirm, contort, deflect, distort, deny and do everything possible to avoid confronting it. The original topic here was a well-written article summarizing many of the ways that marriage in the context of "modern" western society is a huge liability - especially for men. Nobody here has refuted that, not even a little. There are plenty of people who have essentially said "well I'm doing it (or 'I've done it') anyway so screw you and your facts". Okay, fine. To each their own. It doesn't change the facts and the statistics. I hope it works out well for you but for a lot of people (including several I know personally and witnessed happen first-hand) it can go south in a hurry. It's like Russian Roulette - maybe it's exhilarating for a while but if it goes badly, boy howdy... Watch out. If you're a male, hold onto your ass.

Many people here doth assume too much - particularly about people they don't know and have never met. It makes me laugh seeing how very wrong they are.

[aschen]

As I said the statistics are in your favor that marriage will work out, cut and dry.


What facts are presented in that article? That marriage carries significant risk? of course.

[EMJ]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

she doesn't want children. i don't date women who want children because i don't want children. her parents must hate her too.

so because i don't want children and thus see no real purpose to marriage, i must hate women. yup, that makes perfect sense.

you are something else EMJ, you are something else. 0/2 but swinging for the fences with the insults.

If you wanna throw punches, don't have a glass jaw. if you had balls, you'd have your "girlfriend" read this thread.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

As said above it's funny (sad funny) that people ASSume so much when confronted with inconvenient truths. They squirm, contort, deflect, distort, deny and do everything possible to avoid confronting it. The original topic here was a well-written article summarizing many of the ways that marriage in the context of "modern" western society is a huge liability - especially for men. Nobody here has refuted that, not even a little. There are plenty of people who have essentially said "well I'm doing it (or 'I've done it') anyway so scree you and your facts". Okay fine. To each their own. It doesn't change the facts and the statistics.

Many people here doth assume too much - particularly about people they don't know and have never met. It makes me laugh seeing how very wrong they are.

Dueling articles it is - Men get much more out of marriage then women do. I have an article that proves it (I guess we are going with this rather inane logic now....)

A much better article - not anonymous and posted on some wordpress 'I hate women' site, written by a well respected PhD in a leading publication, gosh, with actual facts and research behind it (I didn't see a single report or case study credited in the 'thing' that was in the OP, it was merely opine and rather unsubstantiated within the context of the paper)- and you don't have to slog through misspellings (you really thought the paper posted in the OP was well written - really - it was terribly written POP)...

Is Marriage Worth It For Women? The benefits go mostly to men.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by EMJ

If you wanna throw punches, don't have a glass jaw. if you had balls, you'd have your "girlfriend" read this thread.

if you want to throw punches, try hitting the bag, you look like an idiot when you keep missing your target

why would i conceal my intentions to my GF?

you guys live in a very strange world.

to clarify, since i am but a man, and a heterosexual one that at, i really only spend my time planning for that type of relationship in my life. and to me, without the prospects of children, marriage, and esp marriage without a pre-nep is massively risky, you take a massive risk, without any real upsides. thats a bet im not going to make, because i stand to gain basically nothing. so why would i bother?

as far as women being this, or that, it doesn't really matter. im sure men are just as evil and angry and terrible to women in divorces too, i just will never end up divorcing a man, so its something i don't spend time planning in my life. its not something that will ever happen to me, so why would i plan/think about it?

i don't necessarily think that men or women are better off or more advantaged in marriage, that mostly depends on the financial and lifestyle choices each person made before and during the relationship. i happen to be quite wealthy for my age/position in life, and so i do stand to loose, comparing to most potential partners.

[aschen]

the no real upsides is your opinion. That marriage is not right for you, Im sure you are right about. IF somebody says marriage is the greatest and most valuable thing in their lives it is 100% as valid to them as your opinion is to you.

IF your definition of value is monetary, Its plain as day nobody will be able to provide a positive expected monetary value to marriage. Its not a financial driven contract to many.

IT is super self indulgent for those to think they have this sort of stuff figured out at any sort of higher level than anybody else.

[EMJ]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

if you want to throw punches, try hitting the bag, you look like an idiot when you keep missing your target

why would i conceal my intentions to my GF?

you guys live in a very strange world.

to clarify, since i am but a man, and a heterosexual one that at, i really only spend my time planning for that type of relationship in my life. and to me, without the prospects of children, marriage, and esp marriage without a pre-nep is massively risky, you take a massive risk, without any real upsides. thats a bet im not going to make, because i stand to gain basically nothing. so why would i bother?

as far as women being this, or that, it doesn't really matter. im sure men are just as evil and angry and terrible to women in divorces too, i just will never end up divorcing a man, so its something i don't spend time planning in my life. its not something that will ever happen to me, so why would i plan/think about it?

i don't necessarily think that men or women are better off or more advantaged in marriage, that mostly depends on the financial and lifestyle choices each person made before and during the relationship. i happen to be quite wealthy for my age/position in life, and so i do stand to loose, comparing to most potential partners.

Ramblings of a fool.

[motion]

I can't believe some of you are still playing mental masturbation with this jackoff.