How did the tail-end of Baby-Boomers produce such dysfunction?

[JD159]

Originally Posted by Embraer

college/university is NOT a necessity. I wish more people would understand this.

Not yet, but it is coming.

[rturbo 930]

I don't think it's fair to compare an income of $56k 25-30 years ago to that same salary today.

Assuming the year was 1990, using this calculator: CPI Inflation Calculator $56k would be about $100k today. I don't know anyone making that straight out of college. There is also the cost of living to factor in, and likely many other factors, but I'm not going to get into that.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Embraer

college/university is NOT a necessity. I wish more people would understand this.

I'd rather have someone work for me with no formal education as a machinist, but a willingness to work and ability to learn, over someone with a degree, and one of the most frustrating hires you can make is someone with a degree in machining but no job experience. There are plenty of programs that would of given them both work experience and paid for their degree - the fact that they didn't cut it for such a program indicates they were far too lazy.

With a brain, a willingness to work hard, and a pair of shoes and clothing to walk around an industrial area asking for job applications, a person with a basic academic education(not even HS) can start around $20K with overtime, and possibly get to a place to pull $60K+ a year.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

I'd rather have someone work for me with no formal education as a machinist, but a willingness to work and ability to learn, over someone with a degree, and one of the most frustrating hires you can make is someone with a degree in machining but no job experience. There are plenty of programs that would of given them both work experience and paid for their degree - the fact that they didn't cut it for such a program indicates they were far too lazy.

With a brain, a willingness to work hard, and a pair of shoes and clothing to walk around an industrial area asking for job applications, a person with a basic academic education(not even HS) can start around $20K with overtime, and possibly get to a place to pull $60K+ a year.

Depends on the industry. Completely depends on the industry. If you have the drive you can make it in life without a degree, but you will limit career options.

I'm not saying a degree is necessary for ANY job, but find me evidence that suggests they aren't becoming an increasing requirement for work.

[dienstuhr]

Just a data point for folks who are interested in salaries for people coming out of school.

I popped out of Osgoode Hall law school in Ontario, Canada in 1995 as a fresh-faced 23-year-old. I moved back to my home province of Manitoba and took an articling job at a market rate, $12,000 per year. I lived with my girlfriend (now wife) and we didn't take any money from anybody, neither her parents nor mine. I was fortunate not to have student loans, but we were not living in luxury as she didn't have a job at first after we moved. After my call to the Bar I got a raise to $24K/year.

In 2016 dollars that equates to:

Starting salary after 3 years of university and 3 years of law school: ~$19,000.
Salary after call to the Bar: ~$36,700.

I now lead a team of young lawyers at our company and I know that their salaries far exceed what I made, even adjusted for inflation.

I feel sympathy for kids who emerge from school with huge loads of debt. I know that my entire law school education cost less - only 20 years ago - than kids nowadays pay for one year.

However, at the same time, I see that the expectations of younger people regarding their standard of living are much much higher than those of me and my peers, when we were their age. Many expect that they will instantly have the standard of living that their parents enjoy after half a lifetime of work! This is only exacerbated by the experience of living at home in a catered suite with a big-screen TV, etc. for extended periods as adults. Unfortunately, many young people have no idea what all of that costs (the great majority do not pay anything towards household expenses).

I think that it does people good to experience some hardship when they're starting out. I think that this helps build an appreciation of the better times that can be achieved through hard work.

Cheers

d.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

......I think that it does people good to experience some hardship when they're starting out. I think that this helps build an appreciation of the better times that can be achieved through hard work......

Agree. My first job after graduating from college (USAF to avoid the army) I was making $114 / month plus (because I was married) $40 for separate rations and $60 for housing allowance. For that princely sum I got to live on the local economy (no base housing for 1st termers). So to put it mildly, by the end of the month things were very tight after paying rent, utilities, gasoline, food, etc. $200 didn't go far. and such a "nice" little apartment we had.

We did get "free" health care and somewhat cheaper groceries but BFD for the most part.

$200 in 1968 is about $1400 today.... want to try to live the good life on that ??

[JD159]

Originally Posted by 74-911

Agree. My first job after graduating from college (USAF to avoid the army) I was making $114 / month plus (because I was married) $40 for separate rations and $60 for housing allowance. For that princely sum I got to live on the local economy (no base housing for 1st termers). So to put it mildly, by the end of the month things were very tight after paying rent, utilities, gasoline, food, etc. $200 didn't go far. and such a "nice" little apartment we had.

We did get "free" health care and somewhat cheaper groceries but BFD for the most part.

$200 in 1968 is about $1400 today.... want to try to live the good life on that ??

$1400 a month is still more than 50k a year with 33k a year in loan payments.

This isn't a thread about how little one made and survived. A point was brought up with someone else's calculation indicating 100k of student debt is a 33k a year payment. I said you wouldn't have a good quality of life paying back 33k a year while making 50k before taxes. He said I'm a entitled millennial. That was the point I was making.

[fintstone]

Anyone who took on $100k of debt for a $50k job deserves some pain.

[dienstuhr]

Originally Posted by JD159

I said you wouldn't have a good quality of life paying back 33k a year while making 50k before taxes.

You're right, you wouldn't. In fact you'd likely be bankrupt because you'll barely take home $33K after taxes. Unless you can live for free with Mum and Dad of course - then it might be doable.

So don't sign up for a $33K annual loan repayment. The Canloan calculator defaults to 120 month am with 3% interest. For a $100K loan the monthly payment is about $1,200.

Originally Posted by JD159

Fresh out of college will not get you a job where you can pay 30k a year, have a car and a house, and live a decent quality of life.

You may need to recalibrate what you consider to be "decent quality of life" for a new university graduate. HINT: It does not include owning a house.

Cheers

d.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

You're right, you wouldn't. In fact you'd likely be bankrupt because you'll barely take home $33K after taxes. Unless you can live for free with Mum and Dad of course - then it might be doable.

So don't sign up for a $33K annual loan repayment. The Canloan calculator defaults to 120 month am with 3% interest. For a $100K loan the monthly payment is about $1,200.



You may need to recalibrate what you consider to be "decent quality of life" for a new university graduate. HINT: It does not include owning a house.

Cheers

d.

Don't think I need to recalibrate. That statement was made regarding a 33k a year payment. Like I said, the statement was made regarding someone else's purported calculation. I was simply pointing out that one could not pay 33k a year and live a decent quality of life.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by JD159

Don't think I need to recalibrate. That statement was made regarding a 33k a year payment. Like I said, the statement was made regarding someone else's purported calculation. I was simply pointing out that one could not pay 33k a year and live a decent quality of life.

When I pointed that out, I was told I am a millennial snowflake.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Anyone who took on $100k of debt for a $50k job deserves some pain.

I agree with you. I never said it was a good idea. which is why I asked who exactly is going 100k into debt with student loans and not getting jobs. I believe someone posited that this is something millennials do. And if they do, they are a rarity IMO. Debt and employability is why I did not pursue a master's in Philosophy. Unless something was full ride, I wouldn't of considered it. Hence MBA.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

When I pointed that out, I was told I am a millennial snowflake.

He was pointing out that a similar choice to joining the military and getting the GI bill was attempting to pay off school in 3 years. Obviously, one would only attempt to pay off the full $100k in 3 years would be if a person was wiling to live the same frugal lifestyle as the entry-level soldier. You made the point that it would be difficult to do so and retain a much higher standard of living/comfort level than the soldier. Hence, "snowflake."

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

He was pointing out that a similar choice to joining the military and getting the GI bill was attempting to pay off school in 3 years. Obviously, one would only attempt to pay off the full $100k in 3 years would be if a person was wiling to live the same frugal lifestyle as the entry-level soldier. You made the point that it would be difficult to do so and retain a much higher standard of living/comfort level than the soldier. Hence, "snowflake."

Um no. 50k a year before taxes, trying to pay off a loan of 100k in 3 years, would like someone just mentioned, leave you bankrupt.

[dienstuhr]

Originally Posted by JD159

Don't think I need to recalibrate. That statement was made regarding a 33k a year payment. Like I said, the statement was made regarding someone else's purported calculation. I was simply pointing out that one could not pay 33k a year and live a decent quality of life.

Please reread what I actually wrote. I said you needed to recalibrate your expectation that a "decent quality of life" for someone fresh out of school includes owning a house and car.

d.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

Please reread what I actually wrote. I said you needed to recalibrate your expectation that a "decent quality of life" for someone fresh out of school includes owning a house and car.

d.

OH. Yes I can agree with that. I did not think through my response. I don't believe a decent quality of life can only be had with a house and a car. Renting is perfectly acceptable. Car ownership, depending on work location, could be a necessity however, but has little bearing on quality of life.

Let me rephrase. At 50k a year, and repaying 33k a year, one could not have a place to live, transportation to and from work, AND live a decent quality of life.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

Um no. 50k a year before taxes, trying to pay off a loan of 100k in 3 years, would like someone just mentioned, leave you bankrupt.

Um...no it would not...unless you borrowed money for other stuff.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

OH. Yes I can agree with that. I did not think through my response. I don't believe a decent quality of life can only be had with a house and a car. Renting is perfectly acceptable. Car ownership, depending on work location, could be a necessity however, but has little bearing on quality of life.

Let me rephrase. At 50k a year, and repaying 33k a year, one could not have a place to live, transportation to and from work, AND live a decent quality of life.

...and that was his point. What you construe to be a decent quality of life is far more extravagant than most of us would expect...if trying to quickly pay off a massive debt. Much more cushy than a tour in the military as an E1-3.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

...and that was his point. What you construe to be a decent quality of life is far more extravagant than most of us would expect...if trying to quickly pay off a massive debt. Much more cushy than a tour in the military as an E1-3.

What would consider a decent quality of life? Simply meeting basic needs of shelter and food? It's one thing to have the capacity to afford the necessities but another to be struggling to meet them. One is decent, one is not.

What one considers a decent life is relative.

If I had 8k a year to spend, my family would take me in, because they wouldn't consider that a decent life. Nobody in my family would consider 8k a year for all living expenses a decent life. It would be poverty.

My parents, my grandparents, and myself, must all be snowflakes, and millennials.

Standards of living change. What one can consider "decent" changes. But IMO, meeting basic needs, is not decent. Barely getting meals, is not decent. It is just surviving, and if that is decent to you, great, your as hard as a rock, and that is really all your looking to prove here.

[JD159]

I mean seriously. How can one have a decent quality of life without wifi???