Glad to have a V8

[aircool]

Ok, 201:
Rarly, I do all the work on my cars, (except for body work). But I can't help it, every time I try and convert to the big muscle I feel like I'm driving an overpowered sled. I always seem to go back to the nimble feel of the flat six. Have you ever driven on the "million dollar" stretch of I-15 between St. George, Utah and Las Vegas, Nevada?? Its a thrill in a Porsche, or even a hot rod VW, but you'd never get the same feeling doing it in a sled. The worse mistake I ever made was trading my 356 for that Chevelle. You live, you learn, and you don't butcher.

[VW@heart]

Thanks guys I have rec'd a few emails offering help with my engine swap. This thread is actually the best one I have ever read.

Yea, Aircool and when a 914 with a 377 SBC rolls past you in a corner (having alot more fun)....you'll be thinking..how'd he do that? Thats not a 914-6....Well...Well...I'll show him, my radio is blaupunct, dam I forgot I put in a Kenwood last year, well.. my engine sounds good..Well I feel better anyway becuase at least MY car only wheels from a different year, aftermarket engine parts, italian built racing seats, jap tires, korean radio, taiwan carpet, shocks from somewhere, bushings from a plastic co in utah, seat covers for nintendo, a well made roll bar from Eds garage, a deck lid 20 yrs newer, window rubber from Hong Kong, and most of its original fender lips cut off.

I said from the start, and I'll say it more specific, I LOVE THE FLAT 6, I just can't get the power (350+lbs torque) without thowing old nuggets out the window AND if I did throw the nuggets I would probably end up along side the highway in route to Iowa.

It's amazing, I guess I can toss any part of the 911 chassis into the trading parts bin and carry around whats original on the flat 6 engine around to track events and be ok with some guys. Does that mean a corvair with a 911 engine is a 911? A 911 with a SBC is not a Chevy? What is a 914 with a factory installed 8 cyl?

Interesting no one has given the old Porsche mechanic ks911 any reason to believe he's really not as happy as he thinks he is (is it just his imagination?).

Butchery, well it's all perspective. If I can return it to stock, then I personally don't see the butchery. Especially if it's devoid of guadyness, looks stock, to include the ORIGINAL fender lips. I have even been offered two different deck lids (for real cheap) a whail tail and a fiberglass RSR version, nope I'll keep the stock deck lid.
change the front fenders, nope. Axe any of the body lines, nope. I like the design the Porsche family gave the car to BUTCHER it. I wish the Butchers would please stop cuts pieces off the 911 and adding gaudy homemade stuff, its tearing me apart inside.

225?

[needda9XX]

ks911...call that #$@&'n turbo shop and tell them to ship by 3/1 or forget it!! There are other turbo shop's out there.

[aircool]

VW, you apparently still don't get it. Have you ever even owned a VW? And why do you have a radio in your car?

[RarlyL8]

Hey A-C, noticed you occupation. Are you a porn star? HA!
Now I understand where you're coming from. Yes, the folks that like the nimble and tossable feel of the lightweight small cars probably wouldn't like the big muscle cars. Each has their own following and personality. I'm more on the other side of the fence. I've been hooked on the HP drug for a long time and nomatter how sexy the 911 is, I just have to have more. Coming to grips with the price of the addiction is another issue.

[kedelbach]

My favorite engine swaps:

Jag V12 in a Corvair:
http://infoweb.magi.com/~gaube/corvair/V-12-01.html

SHO engine in a TR8:
http://www.team.net/TR8/Conversions/SHO.html

SHO engine in a Probe:
http://www.harborside.com/~lhumbert/perform.html

SHO engine in a Festiva (Check Beck's SHOgun):
http://www.shotimes.com/SHO4_jayl.html

SHOtus (SHO Esprit):
http://hometown.aol.com/shotus/auto/index.htm

SHO in a Cobra:
http://www.shotimes.com/SHO0cobra.html

okok I'm biased.
Kurt

[Pillow]

VW@ - Just to clarify on your point #4. The Flat 6 is a SOHC design with two individual cams... If the Flat 6 was of a DOHC setup it would have 4 cams. The mouse or rat is not a SOHC engine, it is a pushrod design with one cam below the heads.

I think an important point to consider is the cubic inches of the engines versus HP output. No Porsche engine that I know of has bulged out to 5.7L..? I think for its respective production time period the Porsche cars have had above average hp per cubic inch. Of course as technology advances the high HP of yesturyear is not much by todays comparisons. I think a better comparison is todays Porsche Flat-6 versus the best Detriot has to offer.

Again, to get a mouse to the same tolerances and high RPM reliability as a Porsche Flat-6 you are talking serious money.

Does my chevy mouse leak oil? Yes, a little around the valve covers and oil pan. Do I care? No.

Enough with the soap opera and 200 stuff already!

Peas!

[twin plugged targa]

Geez you guys, away for 3 wks and catching up on the threads - this must be the longest of all time!
Ok.... so I guess it's..

"The Purists VS "The HP/Torque addicts"

Hmmmm..... where do I sit on that fence?
Me I am fighting a battle from within whether to take the plunge and sell my Carrera and get a 930 which will already be up on standard power and have a 5 spd tranny plus have a lower boost cut in.
But I am fighting with my own concience
"Is it all worth it!?"
Are we ever satisfied with our "lot?"
Ask your self that one before you dig deep into that wallet!

[stormcrow]

A Porsche does more than just go fast in a straight line.

Steve

[930fan]

Since this thread looks to be in imminent danger of dying I'll step in and stir it up a bit.

The SBC crowd have been coming up with an incredible amount of cr*p about the so called superiority over the Porsche f6. Stuff like an sbc conversion will whip a 930 is just total fantasy when you compare like with like. The best pre-LS1 vette engine has 305 bhp and a 930 with just headers and a boost controller has an easy 350bhp+. Even the fancy pants Z06 vette has a measly 385bhp from it's 5.7 litre pushrod POS and the best that the tuners can get for it is about 445 bhp with the Lingenfelter 383ci conversion which costs 15k installed. For 15k, a 930 motor is already pushing near 500bhp.

What about the ultimate vette motor- the ZR1 LT-5 with the Lotus designed quad cam 32valve heads. The full house 640bhp 510tq Lingenfelter conversion costs 38k. For that amount, a 930 motor will have 900bhp+. What's even worse is that A BRITISH COMPANY DESIGNED THE BEST AMERICAN ENGINE. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!

As for statements like "my sbc can rev to 6k rpm", well there is a difference in an engine able to do it and an engine that relishes it. A pushrod engine with a 5 bearing crank and nearly 6 litres will NEVER be a free revving engine and you need revs to make power. Simply put, power is revs x torque so having 300lb/ft at 2200 rpm is no use if it's choking at 5200rpm.

The 911 is the finest sports car ever made because of its engine. Sports cars have free revving engines and the thrill with sports cars is that the engine gets stronger and sweeter the higher up the rev range it goes. Pushrod v8's were never designed to be used in sports cars and definatly not in Porsches. For you Porschev symphatisers, I can see the reason for the swap but do not pretend as some of you have that the bonus lies in any other place than cheaper parts and easier servicing for your mild sbc. For these two reasons, you have sacrificed the soul of the car which is the very reason why the 911 is held in such high esteem in the first place.

Let's look back at the neat butcherwork done to ks 911's car. He paid 6k for the motor to be installed. The money he saves in maintenance will not have been worth it when you consider he could've sold his 2.7 engine and use the cash towards a 3.6 which has modern engine management and also enhances the value of his car. Now he has an asthmatic pushrod engine which has no resale with cheap parts costs which will be good because it's going to break a lot. Dry sump does make a difference if you do track events and you will find sbc engines on track suffer fading oil pressures.

I can't wait for the next 200 posts.

[ks911]

Hey Needa911 good to see you are on the post. To everyone else I have removed the engine and am awaiting a 930 trans from Powerhaus II. The 915 trans is doing fine but I want a stronger box. On the track I want to be able to hammer the gears a little and not have to worry about spitting gears out of the case. Am also changing to Supertrapp mufflers, the exhaust was to quiet, had difficulty hearing the engine with my helmet on. I know that may be hard to believe but the car is very quiet now. Also just purchased RSR front and rear bumpers, I got them from GT Racing and the quality is the best I have seen for fiberglass. Best guess will be a reduction of around 80Ibs, However, after the last drivers ed. my instuctor made a convincing request to install a race roll bar and harnesses. This seemed like a good idea given the capibilities of the car. It is a hobby and not something I wish to get hurt doing, not to mention some poor instuctor that has to ride with me.

I would like to post some pics of the project and its progression but do not know how, if someone will tell me, I post more.

[ks911]

930Fan,

Lets make this very, very clear for some of readers that have enter this post late in the game. I never, ever said the V8 was superior to the F6, only more powerful.

Also maybe you missed the earlier post by another member about the Vette AKA: Cheverolet not loosing a motor at Lemans. So don't give me the it will never hold up routine, I've hear it before. My car now has around 10,000 miles on the conversion, since it was my daily driver up until recently. Many of those miles were driven very hard, and no problems to speak of.

If you think a boosted up 930 will live, run your pre-knock senser car up to around 1.2-1.5 bar, drive it hard for 10k. I test drove one just like that with 58,000 miles and the valve guides smoked like a chimmeny.

About the cost thing. The 6k was for more than just the conversion, that included rebuilt trans, new fuel system, ignition, etc. Thing that I do not have to worry about braking because they are not 10+ years old. That is also a completely rebuilt and modified engine. Yes I performed all work myself so my labor is not included. You will not get a 3.6 in my 76 911 for twice that let alone a rebuilt one, so lets be realistic here and not just pull facts from the air that you can not back-up.

And as for performance. I drove a modified 930 with 350hp and I am telling you it is not the same, trust me, not the same at all.

But lets not just suppose that this is just a V8 stuffed into back with not reguard for any other system. I have upgraded brakes, suspinsion, body, wheels, and most of all safety, so watch what you call butchery.

[VW@heart]

In reply to Aircool:

I must have typed my last reply incorrectly. Everything after "....you'll be thinking.." is what YOU or someone like you might be thinking. The entire paragraph is a joke on your car, or a similiar person that drives around a 911 that has 25 different manufactur's parts and stick thier nose up at another guys car for changing the engine.

Have I even owed a VW? The answer is yes about a dozen over the past 15 yrs. As a youjgster, when I was not racing with my V8 friends I was arguing with them the atributes of my lightweight aircooled engine.

In reply to Pillow: Are you following this thread? I was replying to some else's posting by pasting thier Point #4. None of those points are mine. I'm just asking what that has to do with this thread.

Concerning your secound point Pillow. No the ONLY thing to compare with the engines, are what's actually going in and what coming out. EVERYTHING ELSE IS EVERYTHING ELSE. My daddy's old oil-burning-valve-cover- leaking pickup truck engine is not getting a power wash and going into the ass end of my 2001 Porche. What?

Serious money? In relation to what, stock parts? Yes. In relation to stock Porche parts? NO. Geez man high RPM aftermarket chevy parts stacked on shelves all around most of my friends garages. As far as stock parts; forged 283 cranks that can be preped for hundreds of runs at 7,000 rpm are usually free to a good home, thus the high rpm 302 becomes viable for a budget builder.

In reply to 930 fan: WHAT? Your comparing oranges to apples too. Drop all of those Motortrend magazines off at your Barber shop. WOW! That was armchair at its best. If you want someone to help you through your learning process it's not a big deal, but please touch bases with an old V8 racer before posting those guffy armchair statements.

930fan cont: On your road to carifying your knowledge- one clue - NEVER say NEVER. If I had a penny for every free revving reliable SBC, everyone on this thread could retire. YES, 930fan there was no typo, free revving and reliable SBC are all over the place. It's no big deal, you just did't grow up with drag racers offering you a beer in the morning. And for the inexperienced, "Drag Racing" is not always synonmous with "built to blow up". If you want a few GOOD texts to read I can send you a short but good list, seriously. it's no big deal.

Hey 930 and similarly informed posters: the old Porsche mechanic ks911 is telling you with race proven accuracy(not only his first hand comparison), 350hp from 930 is NOT comparable to 350 hp from a HiPo SBC. A bit like there's no comparing a SBC to a 350 hp tractor motor (in terms of power band). The big diference here of course is the SBC powerband can easily be designed to fall right where you need it. Two different hp/TORQUE animals, one with a board usable powerband that I want in my car, the other with a track like power band I don't want in my car. "tracklike" does not imply faster at the track either, back to ks911s point.

---> It seems like the posters have stopped reading the BEGINNING of the thread, and just picking out what ever twist they can argue.

How about sticking to ks911s situation and similiar ones. Taking an old aircooled 911 engine and swaping it for a current tech aftermarket built SBC and more common than not the according upgrades that need to be made to the rest of the car.

Well becuase of this post have recieved several helpful emails, thanks. I have also recieved some interesting pictures and when each authors permission hits my inbox I will post them.

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 03-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 03-01-2001).]

[930fan]

Originally posted by VW@heart:
In reply to Aircool:

In reply to 930 fan: WHAT? Your comparing oranges to apples too. Drop all of those Motortrend magazines off at your Barber shop. WOW! That was armchair at its best. If you want someone to help you through your learning process it's not a big deal, but please touch bases with an old V8 racer before posting those guffy armchair statements.

350hp from 930 is NOT comparable to 350 hp from a HiPo SBC. A bit like there's no comparing a SBC to a 350 hp tractor motor (in terms of power band

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 03-01-2001).]

Mr. VW, all you have not provided any facts or data to refute what I have said. I do not read MT, just C&D and if you do not like my choice of magazines then it does not matter because what we are debating here is the costs and merits of of the sbc vs the F6. I have provided data from an independent magazine test as well as price comparisons based on what is offered from established tuners. If you are able to build better sbc engines than Mr. Lingenfelter you must be very accomplished indeed and I welcome any press releases, magazine tests or brochures outlining what you or your chosen mechanic can/have accomplish for the vette motor. I think the comparisons I have made are valid as the LS1 in the Z06 and the LT5 in the ZR1 are the best engines offered by GM at the moment so are directly comparable to the turbo F6. As for comparing the 930 powerband toa tractor, THAT is just sniping. I do take your point about free revving pushrods - they must exist as the exception to every rule.

ks911, you do not have to boost a 930 to 1.5 bar to make 350bhp. Anyone who does it w/o the supporting mods is stupid and stupid sbc owners are easily as numerous as stupid Porsche owners so that should settle that. As for the vette winning at Daytona, well it is a DRY SUMPED race unit that won and has absolutely nothing in common or interchangeable with the engine in your Frankenstein machine. As for the GT3r engines, they share the same bore and stroke and numerous other parts with the 3.6 that has been in service since the 964. Indeed, GT3 pistons, cylinders and rods are now offered as upgrades to aircooled engines by several tuners. The 993 RSR engines are even closer in specification. The inadequacies of the sbc oiling system may not be obvious when attached to the laughable suspension designs in their original mounts but when attached to the rear of a 911, it will rear its ugly head but fortunately for your sake, it will be cheap to fix.

[supersporty]

OK so a V8 is a really cool idea. Cheap, powerful, and long lasting. Great!
But that body, it's so small and impractical, and the panels are so expensive to replace. What say we take body, put it to one side (in case of subsequent restoration) and replace it with a cheap, easy to fix and readily available pickup truck body. You would then have a roomy, practical, cheap and easy to repair machine. Of course you'd probably have to change the wheels and tyres (fuchs would get lost under the huge arches) for some large chromy off roady style ones to balance up the 'look'. Top it off with a huge roll bar, some spotlights and some stickers that say 'thrust' or 'ram' or something and you've got the ultimate Porsche! Err… hang on

[VIPRKLR]

ks911 - back to your ORIGINAL POST - Is there one thing that stands out in your mind as being the most troublesome part of the conversion? I am seriously considering this upgrade of yours, and am curious if I should tackle it alone or not. Renegade gets way too much $$$ to perform the installation, so I either do it myself and soon, or wait until next year...

Also, do you know if the LS-1 motor mounts are the same as the LT-6?

I look forward to seeing more pictures of your conversion.

[ks911]

930fan,
Do you only read the words you want, damn son. I said boost between 1.2 and 1.5, and it most certainly does take that kind of boost without other mods to get 350+ Hp. So lets talk about the 930. I don't care how much money you spend on a 930 you will never fully tame the lag, and with all the autocrossing I do that would suck. Rememder the FYD I told you all about in an earlier post, that would never happen agian. I looked at buying a 930 because I wanted more than a normally aspirated F6 could provide. It would cost huge amounts of money just to get the lag under enough control to make it fast on a tight road course.
You think that you have some point that I have not thought of that will make me sit up and say, "holy @%#* what have I done". I spent almost two years trying to work out exactly what I wanted in a sports car, not just a PORSCHE. If you can sit there and say that there is nothing that you would have had Dr. Porsche change than you have little imagination.
The Porsche is a wonderful bred but the cars were not built for me specifically so I bought a car and built it to suit my needs and wants, if that offends you, sorry. What irritates you so much that you have to verbally bash other peoples ideas, I think you are narrow minded and without vision but I would not say that out loud, oops, I guess it just slipped.

As for you super short or super sport, whatever, you I see in much the same light, but you have imagination, wacked as it might be.

Due to the free country and right to speech thing, I will continue to post updates as long as someone out there is interested.

[RarlyL8]

All this "fact" and "racing" gibberish is beside the point. The "fact" is that for ~$3500 you can purchase a ready to bolt in 300+HP Chevy crate motor to put in your toy. The conversion parts will run around another $3000 or so. Once the conversion is done you don't care how long the SBC lasts. They are cheap to rebiuld or replace. Everyone on this board knows what a Porsche engine of similar HP would cost to buy, fix, and maintain. These cars are toys, have some fun!
VIP - if you have the time you can do this yourself. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the swap is difficult. The biggest anoyance I have heard of is purging the cooling system. This has also been handled nicely by a few creative fellas.
My V8 S10 now has 240,000 miles on it, the engine 115,000. It doesn't leak, smoke (except the tires), or overheat. I don't have two grand in the motor and it runs 6,000 RPM whenever I'm in the mood. The joy is that it DOESN'T HAVE TO. I can simply goose the throttle and leave most traffic behind. And this is a heavy truck, not a lightweight 911.
I can see why a purist wouldn't like the idea of the swap, but from a performance per dollar standpoint you'll never be able to logically refute it. Find someone who has done the swap and ask them for a ride. If your nice to them you might experience the most fun possible for under $7000. Life is short, live it!

[Pillow]

VW@ - I appologize if I am slamming you incorrectly for point #4. I am just trying to report the SOHC cam thing correctly.

Also when I mention the "serious money" for a high revving mouse it is given the assumption that there are no freebie parts. Like, I do not know anyone that has hotrod chevy stuff hanging around thier garages, or Porsche parts for that matter... I need new friends!

Have you ever done a type 4 conversion from a type 1? Just wondering. This is something I would like to do for my bus because the original idea of f-6 power is too expensive to justify. Which kind of goes full circle back the the V-8 swap, it is done primarily from a cost perspective most of the time.


List- 930fan has a valid point in the high rev area though. A SBC will need to convert to solid lifters and cam above roughly 6500RPM due to valve float. Then the maintenance becomes similar to the f-6 where valve adjustments are necessary. Also the dry sump is a wonderful thing to have for oil circulation.

Depending on how much juice you want out of your motor is directly proportional to how long it will live. Extra boost means less life in turbos. Extra high RPM blasts in SBC means less life due to weaker bottom end, especially if you do not have a 4 bolt main bearing cap.

Racers tear down the engines every year anyway to check that the high output goodies are still in spec. If you plan on having race car like output then expect this to be part of the opperating costs.

Also the only magazines to subscribe to are Car & Driver, Car Craft, and maybe Excellence. Excellence contains a lot of fluff that does not get read. Someone should start a thread on this.





------------------
Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

[TFI]

I have a request...

could someone post parts costs for rebuilding a 3.0 p-F6?(the one out of say an early-mid eighties SC) or would that go in a seperate thread?
and also maybe parts costs for rebuilding a higher performance engine? the only thing is that the parts (if ordered) should be able to show up at my doorstep within a week of ordering them. (like if i were to order a set of pistons for an SBC from summit or Jag's)