All good replies to my posting, and on a positive note:
When I stated I want to keep it 80% stock, I was talking specifically about the appearance of the body, to include not cutting the fender lips off. I do not want a 911 that is all cut up and I can't put it back together at a later date.

"My 1970 911 looks great in the wet sanded & buffed gloss black (tan interior), I hope to keep it looking 80% stock. It will stay de-chromed, with a few stock chrome scripts etc. (911T). I want it to look stock, but I am planning on some sort of smooth fiberglass one piece rear bumper."

Concerning why I bought a 911, I love the overall design and handling characteristics of a rear engine cars; I like the history and designs used by Porsche; I adore most of the quirks (driving in the snow is great); everything inside the interior is quality and well designed, maybe most of all, the 911 body style is very beautiful. I can not say all that about any other car.

I'm sorry am unable to locate another affordable beautiful rear engined 2+2 that is built with quality parts and was originally a driving/racing machine from the factory. The 911 is is the car to drive.

"What upsets me (and i'm sure most p-car car owners opposed to this conversion) is that you are using the Porsche for superficial reasons and not really respecting the car for it finer points. You said this yourself, you like the styling of the 911. Surely there are lighter, stiffer chassis out there that you could use your chev engine in."

As far as cooling/overheating problems, that is recitfied with the technical help of friends, done right the cooling system will not leak nor overheat. This thread is about a yellow 911 that does not have either of those problems. Percentage wise my air-cooled engines have more cooling ecentricities than my watercooled engines. Maybe thats just me?

Concerning LS1 output, its interesting to note, I have a friend that dyno'd his SS Camaro it 315hp at the rear tire. After doing the math that shows Chevy is under rating thier LS1s. After he opened the exhaust and reduced pulley drag, his top speed in the quarter mile figures out to 365 hp. Thats on pump gas, with good highway mileage, and not even going into anything about the LS1 or LS6 in the Vettes.


[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 02-24-2001).]

There is but two words for the V8 conversion............


Financially Challenged.

There ARE two words:

Grammatically challenged.

:P

------------------
blue
'81 SC Targa

[This message has been edited by BlueSkyJaunte (edited 02-24-2001).]

.

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 02-24-2001).]

RE: Financially Challenged...There's another posting I'm confused where the research came from.

First of all I think its apparent the original thread started with "ks911". With his resources his background he HAS and CAN afford to put the hp into a 911 engine.

Secound: I'm sure there are several readers looking for a good way to invest $10 or $20,000 and would like Jerry S to help them identify specifically how a 911 motor can be MORE reliable, spend LESS time in the shop, and provide the SAME powerband for the SAME investment on a Small Block Chevy.....and of course as stated previously in my case, the engine will be driven across country to visit friends on pump gas.

PLEASE forward the magic recipe so the Porsche investors and mechnically challeged can take a few notes.

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 02-24-2001).]

Sorry I am not intending any offense but did anybody see what type of car came out on top on yesterdays'(friday) GT race on Speedvision. This car did not have a V-8, just a good RELIABLE 6-cyl good for extended HIGH SPEED trips on the Autobahn.

See ya

Jerry S

From what I undersand, Porsche, (as many german engineered cars) are quite reliable. Considering most of the people on this board have cars that are 20+ years old and still running (in most cases quite well) I believe that it is you who is making statments without fact to back them up this time.

Perhaps this is incorrect and I don't have any FACTS to back it up, but I would think that an engine with 8 cylinders would just have another 2 extra places where things could go wrong.

Once again, I don't know, I'm just a 19 year old kid. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

Just out of curiousity, (because I don't know) do you believe that you have pushed the "F6" engine to its maximum potential? Or are you just interested in drag racing the ricers?

Adam Roseneck



------------------
1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

Financially Challenged or Financially Prudent – spending huge dollars for the PORSCHE nameplate just to say you did does not seem smart to me, but neither do sheep.

IF you call any of the hundreds that have performed and raced the V8 conversion, they will tell you that their lap times plummeted with the conversion. Less weight + lots more power + reliability = winner’s circle.

Come on fellas – purity lies in your own dreams. Porsche has abandoned most of what is being defended in this post. The “911” is now water-cooled and PORSCHE is building SUV’s for crying out loud. They are obviously out to get the most of every dollar, regardless raping history and heritage; why shouldn’t I?

Please let me know who has ever won major events recently in a chev conversion porsche? I would be interested in this information should you be able to find it.

If you have a hard time finding any information on this topic, perhaps it is because Porsche wins races with Porsche engines and Chev wins races with Chev engines. If you sold your Porsche I'm sure you could put a nice down payment on a Vette, perhaps even a new one. After all, they are cheaper to maintain and all that, plus you won't have to go and waste anytime re plumbing and all that stuff in your 911. Just though I might help.

Adam Roseneck


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1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

I did not ask for nor do I need your help. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif

Call Renegade - they have 17 SCCA champs in their customer base.

Alright, this is off topic (even for this topic) and I don't want you to take offence to this Killer, but why do people post things on here if they do not wish to have others opinions? I always though that posting here was when you were curious about something or helping someone.

Since you were/are considering a chev conversion, I assumed that you needed some sort of help... perhaps even professional. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif

Adam Roseneck


Adam Roseneck

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1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

Regrettably, your mom was right...

This post started out as an informative bit, and others, who opinions obviously exceed their intellect, decided to be insulting. I too am considering this conversion very seriously. As I said, with PORSCHE building water-cooled 911's and an SUV, I do not feel in the least that I would be cheating heritage any more than PORSCHE already has - and all in the name of the $. Frankly, I wouldn’t care if I did - spending $5K+ for a stock rebuild of only 200 +/- hp does not make sense.

I enjoyed this post at first, but the posers have robbed the fun this as well. I’m done.

Put'em back in your collective pants and zip'em up!!! Your all studs!!! My car stays the way it is!! Do what you want with yours!! There's room here for all of us!! Who knows, maybe in a few years I'll find a broke down piece of ***** 911 and come callin' for the particulars on the V8.. Leave yourselves some options...
Love,
Pete

------------------
77'Carrera3.0 www.geocities.com/pcafaro2000/carrera30.html

Adam, Let see if I can reply accurately to the context of my postings: The reliability statements are in relation to how often it requires maint; how often problems arise that need attention; with given power to power comparisons; and a bit of overall engine life expectancy comes to mind.

My experience has been the number of cylinder has very little do with reliability. A quality build, operating range of rpm/power, and external influences are much more of a concern.

A few years ago I boiled it down to a simple question fit to my driving requirements:

How much reliable (low down time/long distance/daily drivable) HP & torque can a 911 engine develop at a usable rpm range on pump gas?

Not enough to put me at the power range I feel is competitive with the majority of my mechanical adversaries.

Striving for a broad power band and having a gear heads ever increasing thirst for more midrange power; the SBC comes to mind as the best tried and true 19.5" battle axe.
(no boat anchor comparisions on the next reply)

O.K. I will have to take a bit of a defensive posture here.
First, many of you seem to think that I am some reckneck that has managed to squeeze the engine out of my broken down work truck into my probably stolen 911. I will have you know that I am collage educated and can afford to biuld just about any engine I choose. I did not choose the V8 because it was cheap, it was more expensive to build that the RS spec. that blew up before it. I built it because I thought it would be a super fast combo that I would enjoy, and I do. Not only that, but I spent considerable more time biulding this than it would have taken me to build another P- engine.
As for not placing in GT classes, they don't even have a class for them, and secondly who would race a 25 year old chassis and be competative. I bet that the car that won was not 25 year old. Rod Simpson had a very successful racing team.
Also, you may be interested to know that yesterday I took FTD at an autocross with over 65 cars present. One being a highly modified P- F6 powered 914(sorry, Jim). So don't kid yourself into thinking that this mutant is only a straight line performer.
And quit frankly, I am getting alittle tired of this pissing contest, I did not build this car for you!!!! I built it for myself and will probably never sell it. So I don't give two hoots what it is worth or weather you like it our not, just don't withhold the pass sign the next time I come up behind you at the track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I realize that many of you are indifferant to this or even support this conversion. You should know I appreciate your support and do not intend this massage for you.

Keith

The opposition of the Porschev conversion doesn't have anything to do with reliability, power, or even economics. It has everything to do with arrogance. The 911 is an "exotic" car meant only for "wealthy" people. If you want to go fast then spend $25G upgrading your turbo motor like all the glamorous rich people do. Then you can brag about what you have and what you spent to get it.
The whole concept makes me want to barf. I would be ashamed and feel stupid to tell someone I spent that much money to badly do what the SBC can easily do.
These 911s are old tired cars that have been given a fun new life. Porsche doesn't care about them. They're selling SUVs to the fancy cheese and fish eggs crowd.
An interesting observation is that it is not the 930 group that opposes this conversion. They are generally secure in their choice of Porsche hotrodding. It is the N/A old 911 owners. I guess misery loves company.

Perhaps it is misguided youth speaking here, but i'm sorry I made a mistake by replying honestly here. Next time I'll think twice before discussing posts on a discussion board. My bad, I'll talk to you later guys, My mommy is calling me for lunch.

Adam Roseneck

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1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

Has anyone ever considered a 928 engine in a 911, would it even fit? I think that would be one wild ride and that would keep a lot of the purists happy. Personally, I agree with some of the others that they are your cars, do what you will, however...I think the line has to be drawn if anyone puts a Honda VTEC in a 911 (with a vtec sticker), its time to call it quits :-)

___________________
Dante Oliverio
1986 Turbo Look Cab
1965 Pontiac GTO Tri-Power
(instead of chevy, try Pontiac!)

I considered a 928 engine conversion after I saw one put in a 914. The measurements are OK and the used 928 engines are cheap enough. The stopper is the same old Porsche problem - replacement parts and upkeep costs. If the engine runs good and long then everything is fine. If it doesn't........
I don't think the 928 conversion would be anymore accepted than the SBC. It is an alteration of the original F6 drivetrain. As a real interesting sidenote, around 10 years ago I saw an old hotrod (very high dollar outfit) that had a 928 engine in it! Somehow I don't think the hotrodders OR the Porsche clan liked that idea much.

Last night I attended a PCA event at one of our members homes. I brought up the reacurring V8 debate going on in this forum. The host of the event happened to be the automotive engineer who designed the Formula 1 track in Indianapolis. He has three high buck 911s, the smarts to build anything he wants, and the money to do it. I asked his opinoin on this subject.
His reply? "Hotrodders have a saying. There is no substitute for cubic inches. Porsche owners add a another line to that saying - except for rectangular dollars."
I thought that was well put.

[This message has been edited by RarlyL8 (edited 02-25-2001).]

Exactly! I have but 6 words to describe the SBC V-8 conversion. Beer taste on a champagne budget. http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/biggrin.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif

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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet

ks911, I think you weren't at collage (college) when they were teaching spelling!

Lets not forget that this is a 911 bb, and the people posting are interested in 911's in the main. You should expect some vitriol if you decide to talk about your kitcar in this forum.

About the topic in question, I think everyone would agree that Porsche stands for engineering excellence, purity of form and function and a beauty derived from purpose. The men who designed and built it are universally acknowledged as masters of their craft. They stand alongside great musicians, artists as writers in my estimation.

Appreciating heritage and tradition is about understanding that there are people who know more than you do, being humble in their presence and respecting and trying to understand the fruit of their labours.
Respecting Dr Porsches intelligence is something that you have failed to do with your conversion, and you are rightly ridiculed as a result.
The 911 has been the subject of continuous development for over quarter of a century, by some of the most respected automotive engineers in the business. It is probably the most thoroughly developed and sorted vehicle on the roads today. To sweep this work aside in some poorly thought out conversion which owes nothing to engineering and everything to hot-rod culture is I'm afraid butchery, to all who care about these things.
Spend a bit more time understanding why things are as they are, read some history books, and then if you think that Dr Porsche was misguided and can reason why, then suggest this to the 911bb. Until you understand why putting a V8 in a Porsche is bad idea you will be subjected to abuse and become arrogant and defensive as a means of protecting your ignorance.

Sixty years ago I believe the Nazi's had the same ideals in mind for humans that some of you have now for this German built car.

What kind of crap do you kids smoke these days? You think Dr. Porsche dreaming up this ultimate sports car with an air cooled six banger in the rear was some stroke of genious? Get serious! Serendipidy at best. You got a lotta goddamned nerve to ridicule someone for removing antiquated technology and replacing it with reliable cheap horsepower. Obviously you know nothing about hotrod engineering and have never driven or ridden in a well designed Porschev. You are doomed to live in your narrow minded little world forever adjusting your valves and getting blown off by every econobox out there. As I've said before, I wouldn't personally do this swap to my car, but I sure as hell won't ridicule someone else for daring to be different.

SUPERFREAKY: please note my previous post (this page) about PORSCHE being the one to abandon history and heritage with the "developed" H2O cooled 911 and the SUV...

And another thing…

I wondered how long it would be before someone mentioned the 'N' word. How depressing.

RarlyL8 tried to turn this into a class issue by saying that purists are wealthy snobs. Well, I would like to better him by taking V8 conversions to a new plane. I could argue that by sticking a 'good ol' small block Chevy into a teeny weeny german sportscar (which actually had nothing to do with the National Socialist Party) is a potent symbol of American Imperialism.

The act of V8 conversion is an act of domination by your way of thinking and cultural ideals over that of another people.

It signifies American attitudes the world over. Forcefeeding it's way of life, through economic dominance, onto a world that doesn't want its third rate offerings.

No substitute for cubic inches or caliber.

Yeeha.

Don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm more worried about similarity between Ron Simpson, and Rod Stuart...
Scary...

Anyway, I love this post... only true car nuts would get this deep into the very meaning of life over an engine swap.
I can just imagine what someone who stumbled into this thread would think of all of us if they were just trying to find a recipe for Dutch Toffee or something.

Christ guys, let it be.
I'd never put a SBC in my car, but we aren't talking about my car. People will do what they want.
oh well.
If any of you are planning on doing this swap, I'm interested in your old motor! http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif
Now I want everyone to stand back and breathe deaply for a second.



------------------
Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Well guy's I have found that any car that someone changes from stock form somebody wont like it. I have a 57 chevy hardtop that has a blown & injected L88 427 making about 900hp with 21"wide mikey thompsons on the back.And I get all kinds of flack from the guy's that have stock or close to stock cars. They all say that I ruined it by chopping all up!! But IMO a stock 57 is rather boring. Mine has never been boring! But to each his own. I have 4 porsches including a turbo and have no plans to put any chevy parts on any of them. I also spend alot more time and money working on the porsche's than I do the chevy. But that's ok. I enjoy doing something different and a bit more of a challenge and that they are!!

I tried to get out, BUT THEY DRAW ME BACK IN!!! (quote from Godfather III)

SUPERFREAKY, - before you ever insult our shores again, I remind you that Tony Blair couldn’t fight his way out of a paper bag and if your bland food, funny talking, rainy, not-to-mention smelly isle ever needed CALIBER (the various definitions apply) you come begging our superiorly posed, strong-economy backed military to save your arse yet again. We are not so third rate when you get into trouble, are we? I served the USA Army for five years in the 101 as a TAG unit leader had have seen our charity cost us American lives. I disagree with your empirical views of the USA. However, should we change our minds, I hope too see the Stars and Stripes flying over Buckingham Palace first.

All this comes because your mad over an engine swap that doesn’t use anything British. You are further jealous over the fact that NOTHING from England has ever been coined “Ol Reliable” unless it were an oil leak or failing electicals.

German engineering coupled with reliable, non-leaking, affordable American power just seems to good to pass up. The thought that it will piss “you people” http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif off makes it even sweeter.

Should you wish to discuss the disadvantages of living in Britain further, please email me or we can ICQ, but this forum is not for American bashing.

EDITED to make it readable for our fourm visitors under 18... MUHAHAHA


[This message has been edited by VIPRKLR (edited 02-26-2001).]

A flat 6 is antiquated horsepower?

1.Lets see, V-8 designed in the 20s by Ford
POrsche flat 6 in the early 60s designed from the flat 8 race engine in formula 1 cars- a race engine
2.A flat 6 offers a low center of gravity and more freedom in body styling with added aerodynamic possibilities along with superior dynamic balance

3.V-8 5 main bearings vs Porsche flat 6- 8

4.V-8 single overhead cam push rod engine vs double overhead cam for 911 F6

5.V-8 hard cornering oil starvation -solution deep oil pan, Porsche F6 dry sump enables lubrication at high G levels along with no oil pan needed provides lower center of gravity with less power loss due to crank shaft oil spashing

Just a sampling of how superior in design a Porsche 6 is over a v-8

Now which is better engineered,more contemporary and superior technology??

The Chevy

Hey Wiper, just having a laugh old chap, don't get your knickers in a twist.

…and the names sporty.

Actually the F-6 is considered a dual single overhead cam design. Which was high tech back then and is the major reason it sounds sooo good at high RPM.

As for the 928 V-8 swap to a 911... I thought the 928 was made for the mouse replacement? And the P-V-8 becomes a pretty paperweight. BTW this also applies to older Jaguars.

Lets keep in mind that a very well built mouse that can take 7-8K RPM blasts is not cheap to build. The bottom end is not as strong/balanced as a F-6 and therefore will take much work to beef up. Jees a good crank, alum block, forged rods, light pistons, machine work, alum ported heads, and all the other goodies add up quick. Plus your cam selection to get the top end will kill bottom end and probably leed to a very rough idle. A mouse that would reach the same caliber extended high RPM driving would probably cost $10-15K if done from scratch. Yah, you can get 300-350HP pretty easy out of the stock V-8, but you still will not be safe at high RPM past 6K.

Personally, I love the F-6 song at high RPMs which I do not think the V-8 could match. NASCAR engines do not sound good to me.

Shoot with a stock F-6 bottom end and some head, cam, and valve work for ~$4000 I can see 7500-8000 RPM blasts. I will keep my mouse in my truck and below 4K RPM.

If it were not for those greedy dismantlers Porsche owners would not have to seek out cheaper ways to keep thier p-cars on the road!

Peas,

------------------
Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

This thread has turned into quite the pissing match (more so that before). I'm Canadian so i'm neutral http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif .

I just wanted to pipe up and show some MORE support for the Porsche Flat 6. She is just far too beautiful sounding and looking (it really does look nicer with the lid open). Not to mention I must stick to mein Deutche roots. Us crouts make the best CARS (not only Porsche) in the world and I don't think that American Muscle will ever take a prominent place in the Porsche community.

As a side note, I have nothing but respect for Porsche even though they went to water. I think that this is only the begining of what they will one day turn the 911 into. Look at the first 911 aircooled cars and how far they have come. Its all a growing process and Porsche will again, one day, dominate like it did in the 80s.

Rarely, why do you continue to build that turbo engine when you seem to be so down with the chev conversion? Just asking.

Adam Roseneck

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1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

Why bother with a Chevy engine? Put an electric engine in it a la Ed Begley Jr. I think that's what I'm going to do.

I know, I know, we all dread the Mr. PotatoHeadification of these classic cars via swapping engines and things, but we must be selfless in our quest for financial prudence and environmental kindness.

When I was a kid, I greatly anticipated the comic book ads. One featured a set of instructions for creating a hovercraft with a simple vacuum engine.
I think I may put a few vacuum engines in MY 911. One for each wheel.
And maybe a big petrol powered chevy engine for energizing my electric powerplant.

Then some really killer Cadillac seats or something for the front with back massagers and everything.
I mean why not right? Technology rules, and newer Caddy seats *with Massagers!* are better than the superannuated mechanical Porsche seats I have in there now.

And in furthering my quest to right the wrongs of father time, I'm going to put on Saturn doors. The kind that are ding resistant--that way my new 911 will always be gorgeous and ding free.

There must be tons of other things that can be done in the name of Updating-my-Old-Porsche, and these are merely a few for the grand Americanization of all things Great and Small.

------------------
Kurt B
1984 911 Carrera Cabriolet

[This message has been edited by Kurt B (edited 02-26-2001).]

Was having a beer with Scott from Renegade Hybrids yesterday....he attended and 914/911 fun run in the rain. He was driving a 914 with an 8 in it,,,,wicked fast. Fun to play with and gets a lot of looks. He went past me in a straight line and pulled well. I would like to think in the lighter car and all that hp, that he would be a spinner in the curves....did not have a chance to play much, mucho rain, Mulholland Canyon, long drops to the valley below and I was driving with a passenger.

But I like the sound of my flat six. As a matter of fact, I had to look hard to find a sport muffler that was quiet enough to not drown out the engine sound.

8s have their place, but next to my kids...I love my flat six best.

Some pics of the run, http://www.malmz.com/signatur/drives/pbr/
and http://www.nosubstitute.org/events/PBR25Feb01/default.asp


[This message has been edited by mikez (edited 02-26-2001).]

what's your ICQ nummer, eh? mine's 329697

Kurt - you’re a visionary!

You know, I've been thinking. Didn't Cadillac have a v-10 engine that ran on four cylinders in city and 10 on the highway.
Anyway, take the 911, and cut the top off. Make it a convertible. Take the back seat out and install a firewall just behind the driver seat. Install a grilled canopy from there to the back where the window used to be and walla - a C-GT without the expense.

Look at all the room you would have to work with. Who needs a back seat anyway. Not big enough for an adult, and us old folk don't have kids so it's not an issue. Just a thought.

Steve

Adam - the reason I'm building a 3.3T is because I want the sound of a high output Porsche in my 911. If this car were stricly a hotrod built for speed I'd have to bow to the V8. It just makes sense from an HP/dollar view.

You have to look at each car as an individual. An older pre-74 911 that is well kept and bone stock is a snapshot in time. The engine is its sole. The car is as it should be.

A wrecked '77 with a leaking 2.7L is a donor. This is a car begging to be modified in some way. It should be rescued and resurected in any form its creator wishes. Because of the economics of the V8 swap it stands to reason that no "good" cars will be used for the swap. Good cars aren't cheap.

I don't want all older Porsches to have V8s, but if you want to do this to an orphan you certainly should have that right. Obviously not everyone is going to like what you've done, but that is none of their business. It is your car and your money.

My reference to antiquated technology was a comparisom of 20+ year old CIS to a modern LS-1. If you swap in a modern Porsche 3.6L you have done the same thing - updated. You get that sweet P-sound but not as much power. As for high RPMs, who needs that? My SC redlines at less than 6500. Hell I run my Chevy S10 up to 6 grand all the time. That motor cost me less than a set of Webers to build.