Glad to have a V8

[aircool]

Can't we all just get along? WHAT HAVE WE COME TO?? Just stop and look at this back and forth bickering. Let me settle this once and for all!! KS911, you show great promise. When you graduate from High School I am sure you will be able to find a great job hacking away at scrap metal in your backyard. And let me just say this to those of you trying to be polite and defending this "debutchery" by starting your posting with "I personally wouldn't do this to a 911.. but.." BUT.. WHAT!! Of course you wouldn't do it and why not!! Because it is insane, unethical, and probably illegal in several states. What are you guys thinking?? And you guys out there excusing yourselves with "Ou, Ou, I changed my radio does that make me a hacker??"" No, it does not, you didn't change the heart of the Porsche, the engine. Dr Porsche designed the car, to be rear-engined and aircooled. That radio "ain't" driving that sweet flat 6. So cut the excuses and instead of wasting valuable space on this site, y'all can create your own hacker site where you can kiss each other's V-8s and other transformations. Oh, ya, Porsche did race 8s but they were PORSCHE 8s not chevys. Excuse me now while I go out to my garage to work on my 66 Chevelle SS (yea its parked next to my 911 but you won't ever see me making swaps).

[rstoll]

Keith, mainly interested in what you did with the exhaust system.

------------------
Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

[RarlyL8]

Mr "aircool", you've got strong American muscle sitting right next to your puny high-maintenance German junker and you've never thought about a swap? Common now, you can tell us the truth. You've got to have fantasized about that gut wrenching V8 power blasting those skinny P-tires to hell. Throaty exhaust note, teeth hanging out looking for your next victim........ You can do it, if they make fun of you just challenge them to a race, that'll shut 'em up. 400 ft/lb of torque, 2700 lb car....................the Chevelle won't mind...really

[aircool]

Mr. HardlyLate, that 396 in my SS was engineered for its "A" body. The Carrera 3.0 in my 911 was engineered for its aircooled rearend. Both cars will smoke their shoes right off, and if I feed them properly they will last a long long time. But when you start concocting mutants you get... well, look what happened to Frankenstein, he didn't last too long.

[CamB]

I want to put a 3.6 in a 356 - am I a butcher or a visionary?

I figure, keep it looking stock. Then whenever anyone tries to race you, spank their butt in a straight line and hope you don't have to go around too many corners.....too fast...

Cam

[BRAINIAC]

If it makes you all feel better, just think of it as a Corvette with a Porsche body and chassis conversion.

------------------
Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet

[pbs911]

think of it as a Corvette with a Porsche body and chassis conversion.

OUCH!!!

[RarlyL8]

HAAAAAA! Vette with a chasis conversion, that's a real knee slapper.

You know, I'll bet the AC Ace was never engineered for a 427 side oiler either. Where's your vision man!

[ks911]

Mr. Hotair I mean Aircool, My first car was a 66' Chevelle with the 396. Pretty car but it handled like *&%# and you could not put the power to ground due to the nose heavy design. I do wish I still had the car though. Anyway I like the combination of great handling and awsome power, but unlike you I enjoy the car and it capabilities not sitting around patting my self on the back for owning a Porsche or Chevelle. I own a small Porsche shop and if you think that the Porsche flat six is the engineering marvel of all time I will be glad to show you all the 3.2 and 3.0 liter engines with broken head studs, worn valve guides, and bent valves from jumped timing chains. And I am not speaking of 250,000 mile engines I am talking of 50 and 60K engine. It is not perfect. Look I love Porsches and there engines, I have owned several unbastardized cars and loved them but everybody has there own opinion of what a great sports car, and my opinion is you can never have too much. Why do you think the 917 had over 1100Hp? Because it was God awful fast!!! I don't remember seeing any 180Hp 917s running around with the theory less is more.
Keith

[ks911]

Sorry Rstoll I got side tracked and did not anwser your question about the exhaust. I used block hugger headers and super turbo mufflers but the important thing is a cross over pipe which evens out the pulses. No lie my car is quieter than a stock SC at hwy speeds and only slightly louder at idle though it is much quieter than a 911 with a B&B Triflow system on it. However since the addition of a race suspinion, race roll bar and 930 four speed to handle more horsepower I might switch to something like SuperTrapps so I can open it up at the track and keep it reasonable on the street. Will probable build the engine up to around 550Hp and build it to handle a 7,500 red line,,,,,sorry I have to go,starting to breath heavy!!!!!

[RarlyL8]

Pictures man - we need pictures!

[Matt Smith]

Challenge:

Simply graft a glass 'Vette nose chop onto the rear flanks of the re-engineered Porsche and slap it into reverse for kicks.

Dr Porsche or Dr Doolittle??

BTW Cam, that 3.6 into 356 is only missing the '5' to make it a go-er. High five, man! Get out the torch and the credit card and let's get to work. Make it a pre A for street appeal and stick it on those skinny '66 S Fuchs to appease the rodders. Kool.

------------------
'72 911 TE

[Adam]

Guys,

I quite like the idea of converting the 911 to V8 power. BUT! only if it's a junker car with no more potential. I mean, anyone who chops up a nice 911 to fit a rumbly bowtie needs their head read.

I admire the work done on ks911's car and the apparent quality of the work. If he wants to do this to *his own car* then that's fine. I've spent some time browsing around the Renegade Hybrids website and admit that I'm intrigued, but I'd never do it to my current 911. I love it too much. I also like that clattery, whirry raspy six sound!

If I did, it'd be a 914, although the nature of my engine swap would be a little different. I researched this very seriously before buying my pristine 76 (Kudos to the previous owner!). My plan was to buy an old 914 and trash the 1.7/1.8 and fit an imported Subaru 2.0 Flat four. The superb centre of gravity would remain the same, with the boxer motor mounted in the same place as the old one. Subaru build these babies tough, too. 2.0 Intercooled Turbo, 282 bhp. All for less than AUS$4k. (about US$2k at the moment! d'oh) The little old VW gearbox in the 914 can easily cope with upto 300bhp, but the power the sube can unleash is unholy! These cars fly in 4WD 1300kg form (12.2 quarter), let alone slammed into a 914! But at the end of the day, it'd be a car with little market when the time comes to sell it.

Therefore any work like this or ks911's car would only be if you don't plan on selling the car. You've worked hard to get the car where it is, you didn't build it to sell it, so enjoy it and don't worry about what other people think. Post some more pics!!

--------------------
Adam Chaplin
1976 911S Coupe
Melbourne, Australia

[RarlyL8]

I don't think people realize that the V8/911 conversion is reversible. When I researched doing this to my car I planned to use dual or tripple radiators in the front via RSR bumper. That means the gas tank and front pan remain untouched. No torching or welding is done in the rear either. I tried to buy all the conversion parts once from a car that was "reborn" due to an overkill smallblock that was destroying the car.

[ClayMcguill]

The Thread That Would Not Die....

------------------
Clay McGuill '66 912, '97 Jeep Cherokee www.geocities.com/the912guy

[ks911]

The yellow 911 on page two of the thread is my car, a freind placed them there. I have plenty of pics but I am afraid I do not know how to add them to the thread. Tell me how and I will show pics through build.

Keith

PS I like the comments about the Vette conversion, how about I mold in a set of the vacume operated pop up headlight in to the hood and flatin the fenders like a slope nose! Then I could losen all the interior panels to duplicate all the squeaks and rattles of a real Vette.

[VW@heart]

It's one thing to stick a SBC into a 911, it another to do it right like you did. Your build is very very similar to what I have drawn up for my 911. Even the odd detail like the cooling pump. Unlike everyone else I had heard from, and similar to you, I have planned on an electric cooling pump to be mounted up front. Your research is excellent, and thats why the results were so good. I'm soooo very glad you did NOT build some monster, you actually defeated 98% of the snipers before they actually created their postings!

Butcher? Chopped up? Lose its value? etc? I missed where that happened, including the loss of value. What was chopped up? Odd looking? They would not even notice your car a V8 driving down the road. Not able to run at high RPMs? They obviously don't know much about HiPo chevy small blocks. Lost $ at resale? The only loss you incurred was the same loss anyone would incur if they spent the same money on new HiPo parts for their car. I'm always seeing 911s with thousands of dollars spent and sold for 25% of what was in it. How much money would you loose if you put the F6 back in and sold it? After a gas tank change and the two small air holes wire welded in, I would like some sniper tell me specifically what part of your car would be butchered anymore than a F6 built for the track?

Most of the snipers appear to be confusing their past experiences with actual facts. Without current research and apple to apple comparisons, the only true statements they have left to use are personal preferences (which is everyone's right to have). I tried to find a sniper who posted any technical facts or apple to apple specific points against your conversion but could not find one.

Me personally I love the Flat 4s and 6s, and if I could get one to run like an over 5.0 liter HiPo Chevy I would never have planned on doing a swap. One poster mentioned having the money to build a 700 hp motor, I wonder if he has driven a well designed and reliably smooth V8 at 700 hp? There's a saying older than me quoted by the big boys "There's no substitute for cubic inches", that includes money. You get your CCs or Cubes and work with them, if you get more cubes you go faster or run the same power more reliably, its math. In the case of a 700hp 911, my limited experience tells me no matter how much you spend it is still going to be a handful, less reliable, not as easy to drive on the street or even race as the SBC. I maybe wrong on that specific point, but its not a factor for my engine swap, as I don't want to spend $10,000 on 350 low maint/reliable hp. If money was not a factor, I would buy a couple of the new all alum LS1 engines and use them. With almost 400hp stock, very reliable, and excellent fuel economy the LS1 is asking to be bumped up to 500hp in a grocery getting Porsche that might get throttled on the weekends.

For some weight is a major concern for track use, just a note here, the short stroke all alum Rover engine is only 310 lbs. Thats hundreds of pounds lighter than the 930 engine, and still much lighter the 911. Keeping the stroke under 3" for revving will limit the builder to 4 liters. 5 liters is available, but with over 3.4" in the stroke, maybe more of a street engine. A 4 liter Rover engine, with a mild super charger (about $2,500) would probably be the easy way to a reliable low maint high mileage 350hp 325lb engine at the track.

Rover engine had several design weaknesses that they have corrected in the past few years. It is actually an engine better suited for a small car than a large truck.

On another note, I have a friend that works at a dealership, they have a 450hp 930 that is driving them nuts. They get it running good, even though its a finicky beast to drive (they rev the snut out of it to go fast) they are happy until something else goes wrong. To bad their money and time can't seem to keep the car happy, I think they should de-tune it to 350hp. I would love to have a reliable 350 hp F6 in one of my old 914s and race them on the weekends.

MORE TO THE POINT: I am putting together my newly restored rust free 1970 911T and a SBC.

I have been looking at this and buying parts for 5 - 8 yrs, I actually started with three 914s, then sold all of them because my eventual plans were to drive it on the street more than anything else. I like the 911s style body more (also 2+2 is a bonus), and I require it to have a reliable 300 - 325+hp. If the SBC breaks I can fix it almost anywhere at a reasonable cost, and plan on driving it for 100,000 miles. Occasionally spending a few hundred dollars to fix a HiPo car is ok. I would go nuts if the car was finicky, hard to drive (in comparison to the SBC) AND cost a lot to maintain (time is money).

--->>>When it comes to a daily driver, finicky and expensive should not go hand in hand.

My 1970 911 looks great in the wet sanded & buffed gloss black (tan interior), I hope to keep it looking 80% stock. It will stay de-chromed, with a few stock chrome scripts etc. (911T). I want it to look stock, but I am planning on some sort of smooth fiberglass one piece rear bumper. I already have a fiberglass 1970 911S style front bumper, but may have to change to the RSR oil cooler front bumper, I''m not sure which one will look closer to stock 911T after the cooling mods. If I can sort of hide the air intake for the 911S bumper, I will stay with it.

I had the original owner keep the motor and I also skipped on the 915 trans. I bought the 930 trans for $750, I hope the guy who sold it to me was honest when he told me is was in good shape.

I am stumped on the wheels to buy - I am looking at buying 16x6/8" C2s wheels (w/ spacers), or 16x6/7"Boxter take offs (w/ spacers), or my original plans were to run 16x6/7 Fuchs (probably w/ a black center).

I have a friend who started to build a 377 Chevy, but half way through he decided he does not want it. He is going to build his big block instead. So it looks like I will be getting a well built 377 for cheap with light wt pistons, rods and crank. He's using alum AFR heads on it, but will keep them as they were borrowed from another friend of ours. His 377 uses tried and true parts that put it at 450-500 hp and the shift point just over 7,000 rpm (same rpm peak as the 350 he is currently driving) but I'm not running his cam-heads-exhaust, and I'm building a car that may need to drive across the US. I will use the TFS street heads and de-tune it to 350 - 375hp@6,000ish on cheap pump gas. I will have about $2,000 in the new longblock. With the SBC running minimal stock type components, it will be just under 500lbs, not unlike a 930 turbo engine.

I know a guy with two conversion kits, a Rod Simpson kit and a Renegade kit. They are the full $1,500 kits. He has picked out the parts he likes and wants to sell the left over kit for abut $500. I'm wondering if the 915 kits will work on my 1987 930 trans? It would only be a temp clutch, just to get the car into the road, its a restoration so I will have a dozen things to work on, then I will get the HiPo clutch before any major stress is added.

I have the 930 trans on a four wheel furniture dolly and under the car, it looks like it will not fit!

I would appreciate any help provided concerning any part of the 911, data files, pictures, old emails forwarded, anything in any form or fashion would be appreciated.

I will be lowering it about 1 1/2, but not looking for wash board ride performance parts.

-->>>Maybe as years go by I will decide to slow down a bit and put a F6 (3 liter) back into my 911, rewelding the two air ducts and misc parts. Hopefully I can secure a reliable engine that will get me 150,000 miles.

For now I must continue on my quest for a beautiful 2,500lb chassis with a flat 350+ foot pounds of torque working smooth horsepower up to 6,500 rpm on the 930 trans - always prepared for any meeting of the old 911 VS the latest production sports car (yes it will look mostly stock driving down the road).

Again thanks for your (everyone's) excellent positive postings, you did a fantastic job there. Any counter points with specific issues and without emotions would also be appreciated.

I'm amazed the irritated snipers continued with weak postings and could not use research to come up with a solid and credible replies to your specific build. I actually wanted to identify some unknown weakness in the engine swap. Excluding the guys that like to keep their cars 90% original, I think a lot of the sniping is frustration or past prejudices based on other swaps and shop talk.

Honestly if I had a reliable and feasible 5+ liter Porsche engine I would use it instead of the SBC. I have always loved air-cooled engines, in many situations they are the best bet, in some other situations you just have to love the noise and inherent caretaking as part of the enjoyment.

On the other hand, its also quite amazing that someone can chop up a 911 and add any aftermarket Porsche part to make it go faster at the track, but say the word V8 engine swap, and WITHOUT SEEING the actual swap its AUTOMATICALLY a butchered car. I'm still wondering.....is it automatically a butchered 911 if I put a 928 engine in it....or would I have to cut something up? I wonder if everyone realizes the SBC can BOLT IN using the STOCK engine mounts and NOTHING GETS CUT in the engine bay?

R/S, -Andre in Williamsburg, VA.

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 02-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 02-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by VW@heart (edited 02-24-2001).]

[atr911]

Sorry, I can't help but take the bait.

Just out of curiousity, you say that you want to keep the car 80% stock but are going to a chevy engine and changing the bumpers? Don't you consider this a more than a 20% variation from stock?

I think I understand where the emotion and the word "butchery" is comming from when talking about a chev conversion. The butchery doesn't really imply ugly chopping with crude tools from Midevil Times, I think it means that you have removed the heart from a man and replaced it with that of a monkeys.

What upsets me (and i'm sure most p-car car owners opposed to this conversion) is that you are using the Porsche for superficial reasons and not really respecting the car for it finer points. You said this yourself, you like the styling of the 911. Surely there are lighter, stiffer chassis out there that you could use your chev engine in.

Well there it is, my loaded opinon and nothing more. Sorry for the lack of fact and technical details.

I am young and I don't make a fortune. I see how much this 3.0 rebuild will cost me and a chev conversion could be very tempting at this point. I can't bring myslef to do it, I love my "F6" too much.

The way I see it, if you can't afford a 911, then don't buy one. Its not like anyone told you that it would be cheap....

Sorry to keep this post alive,
Adam Roseneck

------------------
1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

[VIPRKLR]

Attempt #3 at getting blackballed from this BBS:

I really think I will do this conversion to my new Targa. Frankly, I am a performance man, not a marquee man. PORSCHE fills the bill nicely, except for the outrageous prices. BTW - NO! I do not believe that PORSCHE parts cost a lot to keep the riff-raft out. They do it because 1)the cars need service and parts A LOT (therefore demand) and 2) we are dumb enough to think we elite because we pay too much for sparkplugs. :P

The LS-1 is all aluminum, makes 345 Horsepower with around 310 ft. lbs. torque, weighs less than the normally aspirated 3.2 and NEVER needs a valve adjustment nor a head stud replaced.

I love the looks and handling of the 911. I love the very high quality feeling it baths me with every time I sit in it. And I look forward to having much more reliable, inexpensive power at my beckon call. All for less $ than a rebuilt 3.0!

If you don’t like that – I will be the one relaxing in the paddock waiting for you to finish. I know you wont have time to insult me because I won – you will be too busy adding oil, adjusting valves, and praying you don’t lose something important on startup.

Whew – I feel better!

BTW – I do love PORSCHES and admire their technical wonderment as much as anyone. But I love driving even more.

[BRAINIAC]

"...taking out the heart of a man and replacing it with that of a monkeys."

LOL, Adam that is so perfect!! Except it is the heart of a large Gorillas.

Go ahead and put big fake tits on the Venus de Milo while your at it, you butchering bastards!!!!

If you want more cubes, get a 3.6 and go from there.

OldSkul, you'll be in the paddock trying to cool your overheated SBC and trying to figure out where all that coolant is leaking from.

If you don't love the flat six, then why in the F did you buy a 911?????????????

------------------
Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet