I've only seen 5 or 6 of them but Model S's are like Camry's here.

I dont think so, but I cannot back it up atm.

If you equate the cost to produce to energy consumption used to manufacture, then add in the energy costs over the life, this is quite true.

Hm! The toxicity stuff was news to me (even as the study is Norwegian!), but I've read several studies that even including the production of the EV, AND the source of electricity, the total emissions is lower for an EV - but that might just be about CO2...

"By the end of their lives, gas-powered cars spew out almost twice as much global warming pollution than the equivalent electric car. "

From this, in 2015, so it would be even better now: https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions#.WyEJ2dIzaUk

Just one example, from a very quick Googling.

That is the problem, people only look at (or get presented) a part of the "problem", and that part is always in favour for the EV.
Look at the complete lifecycle, from production to consumption and recycling, of an EV and the impact is negative.

Yeah, it looks like it's easy to find articles for each standpoint.

But it the end, it won't matter (well, it will for the planet of course, but that will suffer no matter what mode of transportation we will use in the future), it's just a matter of time before the shift comes. And with more research we get better battery technology (solid state), more efficient charging, and politically forced expansion of charging networks.

With Porsche, Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Audi and then all the Japanese manufacturers go all-in, which almost all are steering to already, Tesla will lose their advantage of being first.

- Who the hell would think that I'd advocate for EV's for a couple of years ago? Certainly not me! But it's coming. Exciting, isn't it?

Fast as f*k! Silent. High tech, but still simple, compared to the complexity of a combustion engine.

Of course I love the sound of a high revving engine as much as the next man, but I'm excited for the future nonetheless!

(In Norway, we currently buy MORE electric vehicles than gas and diesel COMBINED! Of course subsidized by the government - no tax on electric, and about 100% tax on fossil cars - a Tesla S cost the same as an equivalent BMW)

Electric cars are not economically viable, and as such, they will never be widely adopted. It takes massive subsidies just to get them to a tiny fraction of market share. If those subsidies were removed, the industry would collapse overnight. Barring some major technological developments that would require a total reworking of human understanding of physics, there is no future in them. They are a fad for those who wish to virtue signal their environmental visible sainthood.

Yep.

One of my friends is an older retired married guy that got the "green" bug from his grandkids all reciting the propaganda they are taught in schools. He grew up in the 30s and knows first hand about recycling everything. He lived the days of cutting the top and bottom off of every can of food, put the lid inside and flatten it to recycle the steel can. Pop bottles we brought to the grocery store for the deposit.

Anyway he likes to trade cars so he bought a hybrid Honda, and after a couple of years swapped it for a different hybrid. He is one to keep track of the costs, to the penny. He tried to bend the numbers to show it was cheaper for the costs, and reality finally hit him. They were a LOT more expensive to own and operate. He drive a conventional vehicle now.

Only huge tax subsidies make electric vehicles possible. It will bee very interesting to see what the Porsche electric car and all the others do to the market. I predict Tesla will be bankrupt and under a new ownership and still sucking millions in tax subsidies from us. The old "too big to fail" routine.

No future? Well, perhaps not in the US...

Another, quite large car market, China, might disagree:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-10/china-s-fossil-fuel-deadline-shifts-focus-to-electric-car-race-j7fktx9z

And they're not alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_fossil_fuel_vehicles

And several car makers are announcing a switch to electric only vehicles, EVEN Detroit:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-electric/global-carmakers-to-invest-at-least-90-billion-in-electric-vehicles-idUSKBN1F42NW

The more something costs, the more energy it took to produce. Total lifecycle cost including production, operation and post operation recycling is proportional to energy cost and therefore CO2.

Lithium is chosen for weight and energy density. Lead acid is still more cost effective and recyclable.

Yes, until the next hype turns up

No one is willing to tell me how Telsa will be profitable.

They couldn't do it selling $100k+ cars --lots of them. So how are they going to do it selling more cheaper cars?

I get that the value is good, especially for the Norsks, where the competition (petrol cars) have 100% tax, and the Tesla does not. But is that going to make Tesla profitable?

Does Tesla even care to be profitable? When Mercedes announced that they would drop a billion on a US electric car Musk's response was Good, that's why Tesla exists... to prime the tech (paraphrasing). A competitive interest would be "ours is better..." or some such.

Tesla has received Billions in investment from bright-eyed unicorn chasers. Motion will tell us how smart these people are. Are they?

Lets be clear on one thing: the switch by major car companies is NOT for any other reason than they see the handwriting on the wall and know that well meaning but IMO misguided environmentalists steering political decisions. Politicians are caving to pressure to make decisions to be popular (read:be elected) with voters who don't always know why they believe things to be good or bad.

Example: ethanol in gas. Yes, we needed to get rid of MTBE because the environmental impact to ground water but we need to find a better solution than ethanol which reduces the amount of energy per gallon (lower power or MPG), uses more energy to produce it, and drives up the cost of virtually all food we eat (via the demand for corn). In spite of all the facts, politicians will not let go of this fiasco because they bet the farm (pardon the pun) pushing it through. No one wants to admit it was a mistake.

The choice to go electric by these companies is to avoid being shut out by regulations (good or bad) that they see coming in the future. Other than "messiah Elon", with all other companies (to quote the Godfather) "its nothing personal (or environmental), just business"

We don't need any oxygenate in our gas these days. No MTBE, not E10/E15/E85.

I understand offering it to those that would like to use it, especially for E85 and track days for a little extra power, but don't subsidize it.

The local dealership must have gotten a trainload of Model 3s delivered recently, have seen several in the last 2 days. Black one last night looked great. White is not a good color for this car.

In May, the Model 3 became the best selling mid-sized premium sedan in the U.S.

Please let me know how if there is a study comparing the emissions if you own the same gas-powered car 3x or 4x the length of time you own an EV car.

I have no facts to to back up my theory but if people are serious about being green then the best way is not to replace your car every few years as most people do as they are worried about not keeping up with their neighbors

I'd also like to know what area of Aline forest is needed to offset the use of one old diesel smoker 4x4 :D

Formula E is at the forefront of EV technology and all sorts of environmentally friendly facts and figures are shouted out to the world but what is never mentioned is it costs £30k an event to cool batteries for four cars.

Teslas always seems to look like a storm trooper helmet in white.

I would be willing to bet that you are totally correct. The cradle to grave impact of building a new car is probably significant compared to the energy consumption and pollution during its lifetime. If everyone drove an efficient car and didn’t trade cars every 2-3 years it would be a significant impact. But the automakers wouldn’t like that strategy very much either.

I can see that. This black one was more Darth Vader. Paint was special.

Cheap to build and run Carbon scrubbers are on their way. That could change everything.

Tesla lorry...

Why don't they make battery powered firetrucks?

Just think, quick response to short range events...

Fire events like this one.

Actress Mary McCormack claims her husband's Tesla Model S 'spontaneously combusted' | Daily Mail Online

MY electric car is fun to drive and technically interesting, like my 911, my 356s, and my antique truck. It is an interesting departure from the vroom vroom cars that have been my only option for 50 years. It is also practical transportation. I don’t care if my Volt isn’t as environmentally clean as someone’s Impala, it has the virtue of being far more interesting.

can't argue with that. ^

Some interesting manufacturing issues at Tesla.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/16/elon-musk-e-mail-to-tesla-employees-says-radical-improvements-needed.html

Setting up plausible deniability?:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/elon-musk-warns-tesla-workers-that-employee-committed-sabotage-report

Sometimes, when you try to do something different from everyone else, you discover that everyone else was right. Things evolve to where they are for a reason, and new technology isn't always able to improve things.

I'd be willing to bet that code was changed because Musk wants things done faster, and Tesla probably doesn't have good source control management processes because they are more interested in speed than accountability. Just because code doesn't work correctly doesn't mean it is sabotage. But it does create a convenient scapegoat.

Well said. I think Musk has more than a little Elizabeth Holmes in him.

The problem with ego is sometimes you can't bear to blame yourself. I think Musk is looking for people to blame for some glaring issues associated with his company.

Tesla rips off copyrighted material and Musk whines when caught:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/farting-unicorn-causes-kerfuffle-between-elon-musk-and-artist-2018-06-27

Of course, the ultimate irony is that people like Musk (and many Tesla buyers) truly believe that electric cars are magic and have no environmental impacts.

"but that's kinda lame".........seriously? Rip off a guy's original artwork and use it as part of your luxury products but then disparage him for wanting to get paid?

Wait. What about them being "Zero Emissions"? :rolleyes:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1530203448.jpg
I guess those folks are lying to us or delusional.

Emissions from the vehicle itself may indeed be zero, but what about the negative environmental impact that results from the mining of raw materials for batteries, the generation of electricity to charge them, and their eventual disposal?

The electricity is generated by unicorn farts, didn't you hear? All you have to do is plug the Tesla into a charging port and the unicorn farts bypass the nasty coal powered electricity and charge the Tesla. The coal and natural gas plants are for powering the refineries that make nasty crude oil into gasoline and diesel and the HORRIBLE plastic that makes up 75% of a Tesla.

I hear that production is starting up in (moving to?) Asia.

That should cut costs.

w/in 8 years.

Funny, that’s the basic strategy all the other electric start up are planning. Developed in the technology center (California) and build in China. Perhaps Tesla will beat them to it.
Good move on his part.

Yet the batteries will be made in the 'Gigafactory" in Nevada?

This strikes me as hail Mary decision. A major departure from a master plan of a successful domestic build.

Hey, did you know that even Honda's are made in the US? :cool: And yet the Great Elon Musk isn't able to make cars at a profit in the US. And not for lack of sales. All that new state of the art manufacturing was supposed to be the big innovation that would make US production sing.

I suppose that this could be nothing more than additional factory for the Asian market. --How many years of selling at a loss there? Will China give eco-tax credits on electrics? The US certainly did. Norway and Sweden even more so. And yet still no profit on a car company with so many sales north of 100k per car. --how many Hondas is that? And they make a profit! --they must have better engineers and designers.;)

If true, odds are that it will be heavily subsidized by the Chinese in exchange for technology transfer and continuing to bolster their domestic manufacturing. Tesla has been a master of sucking on the government teat, why stop with just the USA?

That seems like a no-win situation for Tesla. Using technology pilfered from Tesla, another Chinese company will introduce a much cheaper competing product. Tesla can't afford to build a factory in Asia without subsidies, and probably can't afford to exist without being in the Asian market.

The problem is now that there are so many electric cars the unicorn farts are quickly becoming the number one greenhouse gas!

Earlier in this thread (or one on the same topic) someone suggested that Asia would be a good place for Elon to dump the floundering Tesla. We'll see.

I really don't see that Tesla has any technology that the Chinese don't have already. Perhaps on the software side.