I have no idea what materials are sold at a box store so I can't comment on them. I do have experience with the Versa-lok wall systems, and the bed I needed for those is more than 3 inches deep. My guess is you have a lot of clay in your soil, which makes things more difficult. I typically use compacted screenings about 12 inches deep, I use pins and not adhesives to construct the wall and I back it with a landscaping fabric and then backfill with gravel. If I'm worried about a lot of water, I put a French drain behind it.

It's a huge amount of labor to build a wall, it's even more work to try to fix one when it goes bad, this is one thing I prefer to do right the first time. I also would not leave the embankment exposed, sooner or later it will be a problem and it's a eyesore to some extent. If you occasionally get the huge rains we do in my part of the country, management of the water coming off that slope will be a issue. In the spring, it's not unusual for us to have a hard rain that lasts 2 to 4 days. It's not unusual for us to get five or 6 inches, sometimes we get double that.

You usually dont build a retaining wall for the normal weather but for the expected rain/flood. I think a compacted 6-8" base in a minimum in most applications, especially if you arent using more drain tile and stone behind the wall. Hydraulic pressure has a proven track record.

Good feedback . Quite a few guys I have checked with locally that do retaining walls say 3-4 inches of gravel under your first course is good enough . Maybe because the wall will only be 5 ' high ? Don't know . Because I'm already 5 ' under ground in the back I don't see any need to go deeper , and I do plan on running perimeter drain regardless of what I choose as the final wall product . The soil is good ole red Georgia clay :D .

Whatever product I end up with I will not backfill with dirt , it will be gravel up to maybe the top 6 " and then it will be dirt so I can have grass at the very top . I just have to figure out what I am going to use and get it done .

Here's a typical section of an reinforced wall, showing the minimums that you should use. Note that the wall slopes back towards the hill side, note that the bottom two courses are below grade. I'd suggest a couple of changes but deviate from these design details at your peril...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1517943637.JPG

With tricky Michigan soil:
Sometimes it's five feet of nice topsoil over an underground layer of hard-pack clay.

Yeah, by hard-pack I mean serious hard-pack.
I was 220lbs jumping ontop a sharpened knife edge w/welded flute and that damn shovel didn't make a dent in the surface.

Everything might look great on the surface to a home owner.
Then the rainstorm percolates water through the top layers. It accumulates below ground on top of the clay.
And then it all funnels downhill into someone's basement foundation slab.

Add freeze/thaw. Or broken water pipes.
=Disaster.

So it's POURING rain out :mad: so I decided to go on CL and see if I can get some quotes for this retaining wall . Sent a text to one guy , gave him the dimensions and he came back with $9,000.00 for stackable stone and $6,900.00 for 6x6 pressure treat............ yikes ! I politely told him out of my budget . I have a text into a 2nd guy who requested pics which I sent him but I'm not expecting his quote to be too much different . To say the least I am out of touch with today's labor prices :( This is shaping up to be a project I will HAVE to do myself to stay within budget .

Weather forecast for Fri/Sat/Sun is for mega rain so not sure if we can get the electric installed or not......... bummer . Still going to try and do the house wrap on Friday but that's not looking good either............. I can't win with the weather :D

You guys that don't have to worry about freeze thaw and the effects make the replies of 3-4 inches of gravel under anything rather comical to someone that wants their walls to remain walls after one very cold winter....
Smaller walls creating a terraced look could be an idea too.

My garage slab and curb walls were done as a one part pour and I would never do it that way again.
Slab is really sucking after 18 years and has never seen a freeze cycle as I keep it heated.
Wouldn't do it that way again.

His bigger problem is his clay soil, but your point is well taken.

Since the clay soil is so impermeable could a diversion berm or channel be put in above the building on the hillside to minimize the water flowing around the building?
I think this was already mentioned earlier in this thread.

This may not totally remove the need for a wall, but at least make it simpler to have a minimal wall be sufficient?

Cheers Richard

I just had 5 tons of # 57 gravel delivered , that pile will help motivate me to do something for retaining walls :D Had a nice chat with the guy , this is the 2nd load of 57 he has delivered to me the first was for the concrete pour . Anyway we got to talking about the retaining wall . He say's he's done quite a few both stackable block and PT wood . He said with the Alan ( sp ? ) block and the way my soil has been " cut " for the excavation he see's no problem going 5 ' as self supporting . He said a base of 4 - 6 " of the # 57 and get that first row level and I'm good to go . I also stated a perimeter drain system and he agreed .

The two guys I contacted on CL about installing the retaining walls both came in at exactly 9k for stackable stone . So there is no doubt now the ONLY way I can get this done is to do it myself . Today the weather is good so far but the forecast for the next 5-6 days is ugly and the electrician has called off the install for tomorrow :( . Too muddy the trencher he felt would damage my lawn so we will hold off and try for later next week . I got a text last night from my buddy and he's available today around noon so we will try and bang out the house wrap today . That would allow me to move forward with window and door installs ............ in between downpours ;) That's it for now .

The drawing javadog posted doesn't show a deadman, but maybe that's because it's done with stackable stone.

If you go with timbers, be sure to install a deadman or two... or three... or as many as you think are needed. Probably along the sides, too.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qaMPqKp6yvk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I still have no idea what material I am going to use for the retaining wall , and yes that This Old House video is one I have seen . I am familiar with the " dead man's " . Today a friend of mine was able to come over and in a little over 3 hours we got three sides covered in house wrap . My " deal " from CL on the roll of house wrap came up short :( . The roll the seller said had 120 ' left on it REALLY had 55 ' on it :mad: . It was still worth the $25.00 I paid for it but did a quick run to HD and picked up a roll of Everbilt brand wrap . The Tyvex was 149.99 the Everbilt was 89.00...... a no brainer in my book .

So I have one small strip on the back and a few pieces on the front and I'm 100 % done with the wrap . Today was a good day . Here are two pics of the wrap . The next 5-6 days are supposed to rain so the electrician called off doing the install tomorrow :( . So we are shooting for late next week .

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518131102.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518131102.jpg

It's not because the stone is stackable but because it is not a vertical wall. It is stepped back a small amount with each course. For his soil type, the height of his wall and that type of block (essentially a dry stack construction) he doesn't need a deadman. If he builds a vertical wood wall (bad idea) he will want one.

Is the electrician doing all of the work? Electrical is fairly easy to do and you could probably save a bit of money especially on the simple outlets and switch runs.

Since it's all theoretical..
Could you drive and squeeze a deep hole digger next to the hillside and drop down some vertical I-beams(or better) to serve as horizontal load bracing for the lumber or wall structure?

rwest you are correct I could save some money by doing the easy stuff myself . I've run electrical before but right now I just don't want to deal with it . And to be honest quite a bit of this install will NOT be completed right away . The only items right now that can be completed are 110 volt wall outlets and wall switches . None of the 220 volt stuff can be completed because I don't know EXACTLY where anything is going to go . As an example the compressor room is not built yet or the two post lift is not installed yet . I don't have a ceiling yet . So for all items like that I'm going to ask him to get me close to a spot and leave me a " loop " of wire 6 - 8 ' long . I will then complete each install when I am 100 % ready .

John70t right now anything is possible . In hindsight if I had to do it all over again I would have completed the wall first but it's too late for that . After talking to the gravel delivery guy and my buddy yesterday that helped with the house wrap I think my best option is to suck up the cost and go with the stackable Allan blocks . So my plan is to clean up/square up the excavation I have a John Deere 330 garden tractor with a mini front end loader to do that . It is just small enough to get in there . Once all perimeter edges are cleaned up and square I will dig a trench for the first course of blocks . It seems the standard is bury the first block in inches x the height of the wall . So 5 ' wall = 5 " of block has to be below grade . Add to that a 6 " bed of base material = a trough about a foot deep . I will have to dig that by hand . It is what it is .

I prefer block walls that can be pinned, like Versa-lok. Whatever you pick, make sure you look at their design suggestions. A 5 foot wall, with your soil type, and a sloped grade above it, is pushing the limits.

If I were you, I would take a serious look at re-grading that area of your property with a dozer. There may not be a lot you can do on the backside, although there is some, but there's plenty you can do on the sides that might even keep you from having to build a wall along those sides.

You also have the option of forming and pouring a concrete retaining wall, which might be an option. You are not going to like how much labor is involved in building a retaining wall out of blocks.

javadog I'm not going to like the labor involved for ANY wall material :D Hoisting 70 lb. blocks vs. 8 ' long 6x6's or RR ties pick your poison . And regrading is something I am not interested in doing I want the yard and surroundings to stay the way they look now . When the time comes ( probably the next few weeks ) I will decide on a final solution and move forward .

Hey now, Javadog may be on to a good idea there, with the idea of forming and pouring a concrete wall!
You could do the prep and forming yourself. And getting the Concrete in place will be easier than any other material we have discussed. And with your ability to find good deals on material the forming material may not run too much.

I'll be watching to see how that costs out.

Nice getting the wrap on before the big rains come.

Cheers Richard

You can rent concrete forms, you don't have to make them.

JR

Whoa, better yet. Would you plan on making the base of the wall wider then tapper toward the top, for stability and strength at the bottom?

I'm liking this plan! How would the cost compare to stackable blocks?

Cheers Richard

I'd build a wall with straight sides and tie it into a footing that extended into the hillside several feet, in effect making the whole thing shaped like an L. The weight of the soil above the footing would offset the overturning moment.

The materials for a concrete wall would be less than for a block wall, at least in my area. It would also be faster and more idiot-proof. He would have to excavate a little more of the hill on the back side to do it right but he's going to have to dig a footing anyway. He's going to dig it by hand; I'd dig it with a backhoe that costs me $60/hr.

So now its turned into the great wall of China :D It's supposed to rain for the next 3-4 days . I'm going to keep my eye on how the dirt is currently graded to watch the runoff and areas that are not sloped correctly . I have to finish installing the radiator and a few small items and my JD garden tractor with mini front end loader will be ready . I figure while the dirt is wet it may be a good time to cut into/clean up the sides and back . Wet dirt is heavier but I'm hoping softer .

Once I get it cleaned up to my satisfaction I will have to pull the trigger on something as I will want to take advantage of the clean/squared up edges . Can I get a mini back hoe in there to dig footings I don't know ? Can I hire some day laborers to help dig yep . I will have to have some kind of footer regardless of if I go with stackable block , timbers , cement block or poured concrete . So if nothing else a trough of about a foot deep needs to be cut/dug to either be filled with concrete or gravel . For this weekend I'm switching gears to get my tractor going because it is the main tool I am going to use for this project .

Looking at the weather report I doubt the electrician will be able to do his thing until mid/late next week . I really need the electric line running from the house to the garage in place so I know EXACTLY where it is and how deep it is . I really want to avoid a STUPID mistake here !

Wet clay doesn't get softer with rain, as the water doesn't penetrate it well. It just gets slick as snot and makes a mess out of everything.

If you go with a concrete wall, you'll want a footing that is at least 3 feet wide, which means you will want to excavate about a 5 foot width of the bank, at a bare minimum, from where you want the outside of the finished wall to be. You would want to dig that from above, with a full-size backhoe, or track hoe.

This design sketch, stolen from the Internet, gives you the general idea.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518276274.jpg

A thousand percent correct. Let it dry first. You will only make a mess and get you equipment dirty.

Trust me. I have lived the dream. Be patient.

Again, spot on.

You can rent the right equipment and get it done efficiently. I rent on of these all the time:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518276459.jpg

Daily is $195 weekly is $580.

Can't beat the right tool for he job...and this is it for you.

Here's another piece of advice I keep giving that isn't making it to the discussion.

Most people will rent equipment to do whatever job they need doing. That's fine, you can rent anything. A better bet is just to hire somebody to do the work for you. I no longer have a need for doing this sort of work, as I more or less retired about 10 years ago, but I used to rent backhoes and trackhoes, with an operator, for about 60 bucks an hour with a four hour minimum. These were full-size machines, not the small ones that most of you would rent.

For this job, I would rent a full-size track hoe. The work will have to be done from above and that's too big a job for a small machine, like the one pictured above. It's about an hour's work for a normal trackhoe, so if you find somebody local and tell them they can do the job whenever they have free time in their schedule, they might make you a deal where they do it for less than their usual minimum.

The woods are full of independent backhoe, trackhoe and dozer operators.

javadog I hear what you are saying but I am not going to do some large excavation , the earth has been cut by big equipment I'm just going to do some clean up cuts with my front end loader and it's done . I could probably just set large rocks/boulders " as is " and it would work . I normally try to do everything 100 % but in this case I'm going for good enough . Like I said earlier the ground has been exposed for 7 months now and it has been through rain/snow/sleet/high winds and NOTHING has moved or shifted except for a VERY small amount of dirt .

Today I got my tractor very close to running again in the next two days I should be good to go . Believe me I appreciate everyone's advice but this is not going to turn into some major over analysis of building the Hoover dam . This is a simple 5 ' high wall with two sidewalls . Am I being naive ? Maybe . Only time will tell .

You go with what works for you. As I see it , all here are just trying to share ideas, learn a bit, lend support. And enjoying your progress.

Carry on Bro!

Cheers Richard

It rained all day yesterday , all last night and is raining now :( I'm a little grumpier than usual :D . The weather forecast after tomorrow not looking too bad so maybe it will dry up some . I'm going to finish the work I have left to go on the tractor today and hope to mount the mini front end loader either today or tomorrow . I've yet to install it since I purchased it last year so hopefully no surprises ;)

Garage door guy supposed to stop by either today or tomorrow to give my framing a once over to make sure we're good to go . I will stay in contact with the electrician and hopefully get the electric installed sometime next week . I haven't heard anything from the insulation guy or the siding guy :confused: I guess they are too busy so will ping them again this coming week .

As soon as it stops raining and dries up a little I will install the four windows and the entry door , that will get them out of my already over loaded basement and get me a little closer to being water tight . At that point I pretty much HAVE to make a decision on the retaining walls . I need the back wall in place so I know where I can frame to for the compressor room concrete pad pour . I'm thinking the pad/room will either be 4 ' x 5 ' or 4 ' x 6 ' and that I will do by hand . Once that pad is poured I can frame up the room , get it sheathed in plywood , throw a metal roof on it and I'll be weather tight . I still have a LOT of work ahead of me .

It is pouring rain out :mad: when is this crap going to stop ??? Anyway I finished the install of my mini front end loader today and it works great in the garage :D I have no grand illusions that this is a bulldozer but with a 16 hp three cylinder diesel , AG rear tires loaded with 8 gallons of WW fluid each plus 50 lb. wheel weights each side she should move a little dirt ! I was having fun in the garage lifting the front wheels off the ground with the bucket . Just need it to stop raining , dry up and I'll attempt to move some red GA. clay :D Enjoy the Olympics folks........ go USA !!!

And it rains and it rains and it rains !!! The garage door guy stopped by last night said my framing is good and nothing else is needed . He did remind me to run the safety sensor wires in the wall while I had it open for a cleaner looking install . He is going to move forward with ordering the doors as it will take aprox. 2 weeks for them to come in . So in the next 2 - 3 weeks we need to get the electric in because the front wall where the doors install will also get an exterior outlet and a pair of spotlights . I then need to insulate and cover the interior in plywood . I want to paint it white while they are no rails or hardware in the way . And finally I want to wrap the interior of the door openings in painted aluminum/steel before the doors get installed .

Looks like rain is going to continue through Thursday at the least so electric install not looking good for this week . I have an insulation guy coming this morning to look over the job and provide options and pricing . I guess my nest task is finding the metal to wrap the garage door openings . I really wish the weather would give me a break .

Sounds like a cool build. I just built a pallet fork frame for my John Deere 955 FEL. I pull 4 pins, drop the 52" bucket, and mount this frame with the same 4 pins. I can now pick up pallets, and carefully raise them to about 7' off the floor. I am also looking to use the same frame (with pallet forks removed) to mount a 9" or 12" wide digging bucket. I have 95# wheel weights on each wheel, and another 200# of round weights on my 3 point drawbar.....I still wish for more power, and weight, but can pick up about 1200#

So about 30 minutes ago I went outside to start installing windows.......... it started raining ! :mad: I then decided to measure up the L.F. of aluminum trim I needed to go around the garage doors , the eyebrow roof fascia and the two long sides for fascia that will eventually go there . I have looked online , asked around and I could NOT find anyone to give a quote on doing the trim . I asked the garage door guy when he was here the other day and he only knows of one guy and he is so busy with new home construction that he would never take the time to come look at my garage . Nice to be busy .

So I went online and into local HD + Lowes........nada . Went to local real lumber yards.......nada . OK this is getting crazy :D It really shouldn't be this hard . Anyway found a website Custom Bent Aluminum Trim for Windows, Sills, and Fascia | Trim Bender and I placed my order this morning . Probably spent more there ( $350.70 ) than I maybe could have sourced locally but I need it now . So all the aluminum garage door trim/fascia covering is ordered and I should have in about 5 - 8 days . Ordered the nails at the same time so no extra trips to the store . By trimming everything in white aluminum no painting down the road in my senior years ;) Most of the fascia will be covered with gutters anyway but I'm trying to plan for minimal maint. wherever I can .

The metal siding guy is going to " try " and show up today to look it over for an estimate on metal roofing to be installed as vertical siding . Apparently he's booked to the max also . I'm waiting on the insulation quote he showed up yesterday . Electrician still on hold due to weather . That's it for now from the soggy South :(

Hey guys finally an update with progress ! So yesterday it was supposed to rain , I was watching the forecast and kept looking outside . Even though it was SUPPOSED to rain we weren't getting any and it was warm outside so I went for it . I am happy to report all four windows are installed and the side entry door is installed . This was the first time I have ever used flashing tape but all went as planned other than I ran about 5 ' short on the entry door :( . I will just caulk the brick mold and be done it will get J moulding around it anyway .

Unfortunately I am basically stopped now until we can get the electric in . The siding guy did show up he's hoping to get me a quote by today . Have not heard anything from the insulation guy :confused: If he waits much longer I will purchase and install myself . Here are pics of yesterdays progress .

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518786805.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518786805.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1518786805.jpg

Just received a text from the insulation guy , total price is $1190.00 . That is to insulate all the walls with R19 fiberglass and the ceiling with R38 blown in fiberglass . That also includes caulking and foaming the base plates . I think this is a fair/reasonable price what do you guys think ? I have about 790 s.f. of wall space and 672 s.f. of ceiling .

I did some rough calculating online for what it would cost me to just buy the materials and it's in the neighborhood of $800.00 . They can do it in one day........ it would take me a bit of time . I think I will have them do the job when I'm ready for it .

Today I piddled around stapling the house wrap around some areas it was wrapped on the inside by the garage door openings . Did some measuring/figuring for the interior window openings and how I'll finish them . Also installed the entry lock/deadbolt on the entry door and keyed them to our house key . It sure is nice having one key fit EVERY door on the house and the garage , hopefully a thief never gets that one key :D .

Received a text last night from the electrician , he's coming this Tuesday rain or shine :D As of today the forecast for Tuesday looking good so hope that holds . If we can get power in that will be a good step forward as I can then start installing interior plywood on the walls . I need to start thinking about pouring the pad for the compressor room .

Today is the day for electrical install , got a text last night he'll be here around 10:00 as he is driving in from Alabama . Received a text then a phone call from the siding guy this morning , price is $1640.00 and they will try and start this Thursday ! I asked him on the phone this morning to throw on four more 10 ' panels just to make sure I have enough when I build the compressor room .

So IF everything goes as currently planned I will have power in the shop and the exterior will be finished by the end of this week or early next week at the latest . I am going with metal roofing installed vertically as my siding . Simple polar white in color and the exterior corners will be grey to match the roof outside corners . Unfortunately I think the insulation guy will be odd man out as I have to cut some corners to stay on budget . Found a guy on CL selling R19 Kraft faced insulation he has John Mansfield 133.68 s.f. bundles and Owens Corning 118.83 s.f. bundles for $50.00 each . If I go with the JM I only need 6 bundles @ $300.00 total . Need 7 if I go with pink panther @ $350.00 . Compared to Home Depot that's about $25.00 per bundle cheaper .

I may go ahead and buy enough to put down one layer in the ceiling , that would get me R19 for now and I can add blown in later on top . Not sure how many bundles I can get in the back of a 8 ' pickup bed ? So things have picked up speed and I will post pics as we proceed over the next weeks or so . SmileWavy

Electrician couldn't make it yesterday he ran long at what was supposed to be an easy/quick job before mine :( . He is supposed to be here at 9:00 this morning . He said one day to do everything so " should " be done today . The aluminum trim I ordered for the fascias and garage door openings are supposed to be here tomorrow . Metal siding guys supposed to start tomorrow so just in time :D . I'll have to get the garage door trim done ASAP so they can install the siding on the front .

I was antsy/nervous yesterday I think I drove the wife nuts ;) I just want to keep the momentum going and I don't do well waiting on others............. it's a character flaw :rolleyes:. I still have a lot of work to go to complete the interior and I still have to frame up and pour the concrete for the compressor room . And then install the walls/roof for the compressor room . Oh and then there is that nasty retaining wall to deal with :D

You're right about keeping the momentum going. Small projects just stall out if one trade doesn't show it and it's holding someone else up. I deal with it all the time. I tell my project managers to always have a plan B and C to keep things moving. It's like juggling and keeping all the balls in the air.