Dumb beotch at the track

[Tervuren]

I'm not a motorcycle guy, some questions for those that are:

I see a lot more front wheel turn in as the guy is going wide
Too much front brake? Too fast entry?

My karting experience is that I want to balance the kart onto three wheels for a good smooth corner exit, the outer rear wheel being off center from the CG provides both thrust and rotation allowing me to free up and straighten steering. The inner wheel in contrast when on throttle and if it is contact requires more front wheel turn in to counter its off center push.

While I do not have front brakes on the kart, I imagine that front brake off center when leaned over would result in the motorcycle understeering like I see in the video. I would think that rear brake would do the same up to a point it causes traction loss where the rear slides out?

Throttling hard out of the corner should have resulted in over steer instead of pushing out? Or is the bike setup with an incredible amount of understeer to counter this effect?

Anyway, lawsuit seems excessive to me. If someone has a safety problem they shouldn't be out on the track anyway. If they are out on the track then they don't have a problem with the conditions.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Ferraripete

this. I have many years of road racing behind me. I will not comment on his riding ability but the sand bags should not be there during a motorcycle track event. the track was not ready for the event. I have never seen sand bags at a track in my 10 years of road racing scoots.

Whether they should be there during a motorcycle event or not is irrelevant in the context of his lawsuit. They were there and he knew they were there. No one forced him to go out. He made the final decision regarding the level of risk he was willing to accept, and it was an informed decision at that.

He might have a case if the track day management, or the track owners, tried to hide the the fact that they were there in some way. They did not - the sandbags were in plain sight for all to see, and it sounds like their presence is common knowledge. He had not only been on this track many times in the past, he had been out in the morning the day this happened - in an afternoon session.

What would you do if you felt a track was unsafe? I think most of us would bring it up with the organizers. If it were bad enough, and they refused to fix it, I think most of us would either not go out or, if it were just a track day (like this) I think we would go out anyway and just slow down in that particular section of track. Not really something you racers can do, but this was just a track day. He did none of that.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by motion

IMHO, if you leave the racing surface, you should be prepared to encounter anything. There are tracks operating in the USA that have concrete, unprotected walls very close to the track. If you're riding on a track like that, you should be prepared for the risk of impacting those concrete walls.

Willow Springs has unbelievably bad things off the racing surface, including huge ruts, drop-offs, giant rocks, embankments, gullies, etc. People have impacted all of them, even resulting in death.

This guy has no case, if his case were to be presented to anyone who knows about race tracks. He's probably betting on a jury being of a different mindset.

Looking at the video, it wouldn't even surprise me if he ran off the track intentionally.

I've always thought that turn 9 is the widow-maker @ Willow Springs, probably because one day when I was there an e46 M3 rolled and went windshield first into the beginning of the low wall.

The old Riverside Raceway was so gnarly that it made Willow look like it was designed by insurance writers.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Whether they should be there during a motorcycle event or not is irrelevant in the context of his lawsuit.

What if there were 100's of large green garbage dumpsters scattered all over the run off area?
Also, scattered construction equipment like bulldozers and excavators just a few inches off the track.
Riders know they are there. Would you think that is negligent? Or is the track ready for use?

[javadog]

Now you are just being ridiculous. Riders do make decisions as to whether or not a given track in a given condition is acceptable to them, or not. I gave you one example above, where the most successful rider in the history of the AMA decided that a particular track (and the idiots that were running the series that year) were not acceptable to him. Riders often decide not to run at Mid Ohio, if it's wet. In the end, you do have the right to park your bike and not run, and that's entirely up to you.

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by motion

IMHO, if you leave the racing surface, you should be prepared to encounter anything...

That's why in my earlier comments, I was focused on his apparent reluctance to ride through that, ON TRACK. These aren't enduro bikes, so it would seem like sitting up and taking your chances in the dirt would/could be disastrous. Even removing the sandbags from the equation, the off track surface looks full of ruts and uneven grading. Then of course his lawsuit would be that the organizers failed to properly smooth and grade the track . Granted the video has been greatly slowed down at the point of his "about to eat chit" moments, so yeah, the arm chair brigade will judge. However, the only reason anyone gives a damn (fueling all the judgmental comments) is that this fool is suing...

[greglepore]

For those that took offense at my quote of Richard's post-I was agreeing with his point, although it wasn't perhaps clear. Riders make mistakes. That was in his first sentence, and that's what happens at trackdays. Whether this beyoch should prevail in his stupid lawsuit has nothing to do with why he got off of the racing surface, its what the runoff area should have been like.

For what its worth, imho he loses once it is made clear that he had a) missed the drivers meeting, and b) put in multiple laps, probably sessions, at Laguna before.

But there's no need for a bunch of seasoned folks to shout that not only is he a beyoch but look, he missed a corner and stood it up.

[sand_man]

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by motion

...
In this guy's situation, he came into the corner with a narrow entry, which is mistake #1. That sets him up for a challenging exit, assuming he is at any decent speed.

Then, he misses the apex by a good 8', thereby narrowing the width of the track on exit.

His body position and bike control look good after the apex, but I think he gets spooked and either applies brakes, which push the bike wide, or he is mentally already searching the runoff for a way to save himself. Yes, for sure, anyone with any experience would have just finished the corner.

He probably had the front brake locked in the dirt, which expedited his endo, once he hit the sand bags.

Apologies for missing this post. Thank you for the commentary. It does help me understand.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by sand_man

Apologies for missing this post. Thank you for the commentary. It does help me understand.

For some reason I missed this post, it has the answer to my questions.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

What if there were 100's of large green garbage dumpsters scattered all over the run off area?
Also, scattered construction equipment like bulldozers and excavators just a few inches off the track.
Riders know they are there. Would you think that is negligent? Or is the track ready for use?

A few inches off the track? Really?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

What if there were 100's of large green garbage dumpsters scattered all over the run off area?
Also, scattered construction equipment like bulldozers and excavators just a few inches off the track.
Riders know they are there. Would you think that is negligent? Or is the track ready for use?

What if Aliens invaded the Earth and an all out global war for the survival of man broke out and what if during that apocalyptic event the track got bombed to all hell and back leaving enormous 50 foot wide craters that went all the way down to the earths core?

Riders know they are there. Would you think that is negligent? Or is the track ready for use?

[LakeCleElum]

I've been reading up on this thru other sources. The BIGGER implications are: Maybe seeing the end of track days and even some racing. All these tracks and schools have insurance.

Win, lose or draw, just defending suits like this will change the big picture.

For what it's worth, I raced Willow Springs one time on a motorcycle and went wide off Turn 8 into the soft stuff. I stayed on and rejoined the race. It can be done.

[Eric 951]

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

I've been reading up on this thru other sources. The BIGGER implications are: Maybe seeing the end of track days and even some racing. All these tracks and schools have insurance.

Win, lose or draw, just defending suits like this will change the big picture.

EXACTLY. track days, autocross events, karting, "run what ya brung" drag nights--all can be impacted by this.

[speeder]

This can't be the first time someone has tried to sue past the waiver in a trackday crash. Not in America. Can't be the first or even in the first hundred.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by speeder

This can't be the first time someone has tried to sue past the waiver in a trackday crash. Not in America. Can't be the first or even in the first hundred.

I agree. And that makes me think this lawyer is looking at a different angle. And I'm pretty sure every track waiver will be getting updated after this is all said and done.

[sammyg2]

I've heard the saying, "if you can't afford to push your car off a cliff, don't put it on a racetrack".

I wonder if there's a similar saying about motorcycle riders. If there isn't we should think about making one up.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by speeder

This can't be the first time someone has tried to sue past the waiver in a trackday crash. Not in America. Can't be the first or even in the first hundred.

It's just a money grab. The outrageous initial damage amount, coupled with how quickly they offered to settle for a percentage of that, indicates he's just trying to get in their pockets. His business is strapped for cash and going nowhere, my guess is while he was sitting on his couch nursing his busted leg, he came up with a plan to solve that problem. If you read reviews of his company and his management style on sites like glassdoor.com, he comes across as a clueless, know-it-all, *******. Nobody has good things to say about the guy.

[cairns]

In this case the rider and his lawyer should be pushed off the cliff.....

What a terrible canard the tort bar is. Remember that when you vote.

[Rick Lee]

The fact that he claimed his passing another rider was what caused the crash until the video footage surfaced should be enough to shred any credibility the guy has left.