Engine rebuild question

[Smokerider]

Can someone explain to me why it costs three times as much to rebuild a 911 engine as compared to a VW engine. I realize with two extra cylinders there will added cost. I’m just wondering out load

[Jonny042]

3 times the horsepower?

But seriously, it's a much more complex beast for one thing, and the parts are far, far, more expensive.

It probably takes as long to check and set the cam timing on a 911 as it does to put together a type 1 long block.

[targa80]

When you add the name Porsche genuine part the price tag doubles or triples. Naturally, repair cost will be higher just because of the name. I am sure repair costs on a Ferrari or Lamborghini would make the Porsche repair cost seem very reasonable.

In 1998 I performed an engine teardown and rebuild. My total cost was just over $10k at that time and consisted of the following items.

1. machine shop work (valve guides), repair manual on microfish
2. gaskets, bearings, rings, seals,one new piston and cylinder, replaced all head studs, exhaust studs, oil/temp sensors, oil return tubes, fuel injectors,
3. 7 HP air compressor, air tools, engine rebuild specialty tools, fuel pressure test gauges, engine stand.

It can be a great learning experience for a DIYer and the overall cost was well worth it. On the other hand my wife would disagree, but she loves me and knows it makes me happy.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by targa80

When you add the name Porsche genuine part the price tag doubles or triples. Naturally, repair cost will be higher just because of the name. I am sure repair costs on a Ferrari or Lamborghini would make the Porsche repair cost seem very reasonable.

In 1998 I performed an engine teardown and rebuild. My total cost was just over $10k at that time and consisted of the following items.

1. machine shop work (valve guides), repair manual on microfish
2. gaskets, bearings, rings, seals,one new piston and cylinder, replaced all head studs, exhaust studs, oil/temp sensors, oil return tubes, fuel injectors,
3. 7 HP air compressor, air tools, engine rebuild specialty tools, fuel pressure test gauges, engine stand.

It can be a great learning experience for a DIYer and the overall cost was well worth it. On the other hand my wife would disagree, but she loves me and knows it makes me happy.

Not to mention you've amortized that over 20 years..... seems like it was a great investment!

[targa80]

I did all the engine rebuild in a car port in San Diego, so the weather was perfect.

[Mike964_61]

I assume you are talking about an air-cooled engine. There a few factors that play in. I would say a large one people have mention Porsche tax its a real thing. Next I would say its not like parts are all over the place for these engines. So if people have parts for them they know what they have and set the market price. Supply and Demand. Someone correct me if I am wrong no one is casting brand new Air Cooled engines for 911's are they? Like a never used crate engine? Like muscle cars? I think all the engines are rebuilt to new or better standard. So low supply and high demand. Its a bummer I would love to buy a spare motor and hot rod it. But not at the price required to do so. Pipe dream.

[Matt Monson]

They made a couple million Beetles. How many air cooled 911s?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

They made a couple million Beetles. How many air cooled 911s?

1938-2003

21 million Beetles.

[lvporschepilot]

Originally Posted by targa80

I am sure repair costs on a Ferrari or Lamborghini would make the Porsche repair cost seem very reasonable.

^^^^^ this

engine parts and a competent machinist working the block/heads are on a nasty waiting list and charge whatever they want too.

[shbop]

Originally Posted by Smokerider

Can someone explain to me why it costs three times as much to rebuild a 911 engine as compared to a VW engine. I realize with two extra cylinders there will added cost. I’m just wondering out load

It's quite simple: One is a Porsche, the other a VW. In the computer world it's like price comparing an PC to an Apple. The latter far more expensive. Why? Good question. It certainly isn't because of their customer service, or ease of repair. The market handles both of these two similarly. People are willing to pay!

[monkeyodeath]

Probably comes down to economies of scale. 911s and their engines are much rarer than VWs, so the parts and the folks with the expertise to work on them are much harder to come by.

I've got a BMW E30 M3, and engine rebuild prices are similar -- for a water-cooled 4 cylinder engine that isn't particularly exotic tech or materials-wise.

Why? Cause it was such a low-production engine. Parts that it shares with other E30s are cheap, cause BMW made nearly 2 million of them. But specific M3 parts are sky-high.

Ask anyone working on an old, low-production car -- regardless of the brand -- and I think they'll tell you the same thing. When it's a small market, prices go up to make it worth the parts manufacturer and mechanic's time.

[targa80]

Originally Posted by shbop

It's quite simple: One is a Porsche, the other a VW. In the computer world it's like price comparing an PC to an Apple. The latter far more expensive. Why? Good question. It certainly isn't because of their customer service, or ease of repair. The market handles both of these two similarly. People are willing to pay!

I agree with the comparison!

You get what you are willing to pay for. Gee, I wonder why we are not all driving a Yugo from the era.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by monkeyodeath

Probably comes down to economies of scale. 911s and their engines are much rarer than VWs, so the parts and the folks with the expertise to work on them are much harder to come by.

I've got a BMW E30 M3, and engine rebuild prices are similar -- for a water-cooled 4 cylinder engine that isn't particularly exotic tech or materials-wise.

Why? Cause it was such a low-production engine. Parts that it shares with other E30s are cheap, cause BMW made nearly 2 million of them. But specific M3 parts are sky-high.

Ask anyone working on an old, low-production car -- regardless of the brand -- and I think they'll tell you the same thing. When it's a small market, prices go up to make it worth the parts manufacturer and mechanic's time.

Yep. Exactly the point of my previous comment. Scat has been making VW cranks in volume for decades. Go look in the aftermarket for Porsche cranks. Suppliers are few and far between. The ones who make them make a dozen or so at a time. VW cranks are made by the hundred.

[gshiwota]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

3 times the horsepower?

But seriously, it's a much more complex beast for one thing, and the parts are far, far, more expensive.

It probably takes as long to check and set the cam timing on a 911 as it does to put together a type 1 long block.

I rebuilt my 356 motor years ago and am finally doing a DIY rebuild on my 911 right now. Aside from the "Porsche Tax" and parts cost, the labor is significantly more than a VW motor. There are a few more items of complexity compared to VW motor.

1) Overhead cams and related parts
2) Separate cylinder heads and related parts
3) Dry sump system

So yes, it's 2 more cylinders PLUS all of the other related stuff above. You could rebuild a VW motor in a weekend but the labor alone on a 911 motor is at least 4x IMHO.

[yelcab1]

Want to hear about parts cost?

Each liner on a Ferrari 355 is $1000, it has eight. Head gasket is $500 a piece, it needs 2. Valve job on 40 valves is $4,000. Rings are sold per cylinder at $200 each cylinder. Clutch pack is $2,000. Flywheel runs $4,000. T/O bearing is $600. One set of 16 rod bolts is $1400.

And then you get to pay for the labor.

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

They made a couple million Beetles. How many air cooled 911s?

Dude, that number for a Type I is close to 21 million. Matt is right though - it comes down to numbers.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

Dude, that number for a Type I is close to 21 million. Matt is right though - it comes down to numbers.

Sometimes I deliberately use understatement to emphasize my point.

[juanbenae]

porschedomous says don't jump in a pool you aren't prepared to swim in.

[brighton911]

Yelcab1, I was sniffing around for a Ferrari but those parts prices you quoted had me running like a scared cat. Holy smokes they are expensive!

[Sunroof]

I was at the Porsche Experience in Atlanta the other day (ran the new Carrera 4S) and stopped by the new Restoration facility. I asked what they are charging to rebuild a 2.4L engine from a1973.5T. The answer was $35,000 and up!!!!!

By comparison my 2.4T engine was totally rebuilt in Atlanta by a well known mechanic (Galen Bridges) in 1991 and looking at the receipts the total was $9,900.00.

Granted, the Porsche restoration shop would use all OEM engine parts down to the lock washers, but it just shows how expensive repairs and parts have become.

One bad shift could cost you thousands!! Crazy...............