A smelly tale of a 3.2 Targa - engine advice needed

[icarp]

Luka,
At 200*+ (for all the oil ) at least 30 min of driving, now you can check the oil. "not before"
One of the best ways for learning about the proper oil level is to let the bottom mark on the dipstick be the full mark. Then the distance form the bottom mark to the end of the dipstick is the area for measuring levels . Has your engine had a low rev life or a high rev happy life .
It is important to blast the revs up in the cars every time you drive , 6500 rpm- 7000.
Yours is a 3.2 so it will probably go soft at 6200 rpm. Rev it !!!!!!!!!!
You most likely have oil deposits built up in the exhaust system , you need to burn it off . REV IT .

Aim for a level on the dipstick half way between the bottom 1/8" and the lower mark
I'll bet you will have reduced oil consumption . Check oil HOT REALLY HOT , not warm ,,,,

Clutch in test is not really helpful, rev it up in 3rd to 6000 then lift off the gas and coast,
eyes in the mirror , at about 3500 rpm give it gas again, now look for smoke and report .
You need 500 miles of really fun high reving miles for the complete test. Try to get 12 mpg.

Merry Christmas
Ian

[Bulatovic]

Merry Christmas to you too! Wishing you all lovely holidays!


I try not to let it go sluggish below 3000rpm, and tend to use ever opportunity when hot to rev the crap out of it - it pulls lovely, and sounds amazing approaching redline (and even better after this little airbox hack:
)

As for the oil level, i always check it after a 30 or so minute drive where it sees a few full throttle pulls on the highway, and the temperature just around the 1st notch - which should represent 90'c or about 190F. However i can never get it to go above that mark, unless sitting in the stop&go traffic... Anything i should do to get it more in the 200-220 range if it's healthier for it - or am i ok below at 180-190F?

Originally Posted by icarp

Clutch in test is not really helpful, rev it up in 3rd to 6000 then lift off the gas and coast,
eyes in the mirror , at about 3500 rpm give it gas again, now look for smoke and report .
You need 500 miles of really fun high reving miles for the complete test. Try to get 12 mpg.

Another huge thanks for the tip here! Will test tomorrow on my way to work and report back

I'm all in for the fun 1000km! Just to find a road in this overly safe Belgium... maybe they will let me in at Spa Fracorchamps or Zolder for some engine maintenance

[rokemester]

This is great reading! I wish my Targa wasn’t put to bed for the winter months. Would just love to get out and do some thrashing!!

[Bulatovic]

Originally Posted by rokemester

This is great reading! I wish my Targa wasn’t put to bed for the winter months. Would just love to get out and do some thrashing!!

oh c'mon, bring it out to play, i'm enjoying mine a lot! It brings light and joy to horrible morning commute and murky winter days!
Only wash it often
Mine was super happy even at -7'c and frost on the roof - and the heater works quite well


https://tinypic.host/i/Tw2l8

[icarp]

Ok , just do the last dipstick test I said.
Do not let the oil level go over the bottom mark. Do not add oil until it' gets to the last 1/4"
from the bottom tip and then only add 1/2 ltr then watch the level.
Collect data.

City driving keep the revs over 3000 rpm, your pic has revs at 2000

Merry Christmas
Ian

My Great Great grand dad was a painter in Belgium "Maurice Hagmans " water color

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Bulatovic

Merry Christmas to you too! Wishing you all lovely holidays!


I try not to let it go sluggish below 3000rpm, and tend to use ever opportunity when hot to rev the crap out of it - it pulls lovely, and sounds amazing approaching redline (and even better after this little airbox hack:
)

As for the oil level, i always check it after a 30 or so minute drive where it sees a few full throttle pulls on the highway, and the temperature just around the 1st notch - which should represent 90'c or about 190F. However i can never get it to go above that mark, unless sitting in the stop&go traffic... Anything i should do to get it more in the 200-220 range if it's healthier for it - or am i ok below at 180-190F?




Another huge thanks for the tip here! Will test tomorrow on my way to work and report back

I'm all in for the fun 1000km! Just to find a road in this overly safe Belgium... maybe they will let me in at Spa Fracorchamps or Zolder for some engine maintenance

Happy holidays to you too.

180-190 is fine. Just keep checking it.

I respectfully disagree with running under the dipstick min mark for extended periods. Great for the testing but not good long term as you never know when your oil level will catastrophically fall.

Once you understand your consumption at the lower level, this may tell you that overfill is the real culprit. Go back to running no more than halfway between the max/min marks. Top up at the min mark. While you are at it, if your level gauge on the dash is registering, figure out if it correlates with the dip stick. This will allow you to check the level when stopped and idling without getting out of the car.

Keep us updated. Data collection/investigation is always preferable to throwing money at the problem.

[Bulatovic]

Originally Posted by icarp

Ok , just do the last dipstick test I said.
Do not let the oil level go over the bottom mark. Do not add oil until it' gets to the last 1/4"
from the bottom tip and then only add 1/2 ltr then watch the level.
Collect data.

City driving keep the revs over 3000 rpm, your pic has revs at 2000

Merry Christmas
Ian

My Great Great grand dad was a painter in Belgium "Maurice Hagmans " water color

i’ll see to suck the excess tomorrow until the min level and start a new measuring sequence for a 400-500km and monitor it super closely

You got me at 2000 there! 😄 i’ll keep it up!

Wow! Great grandpa was a serious artist! Amazing paintings!

[Bulatovic]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Happy holidays to you too.

180-190 is fine. Just keep checking it.

I respectfully disagree with running under the dipstick min mark for extended periods. Great for the testing but not good long term as you never know when your oil level will catastrophically fall.

Once you understand your consumption at the lower level, this may tell you that overfill is the real culprit. Go back to running no more than halfway between the max/min marks. Top up at the min mark. While you are at it, if your level gauge on the dash is registering, figure out if it correlates with the dip stick. This will allow you to check the level when stopped and idling without getting out of the car.

Keep us updated. Data collection/investigation is always preferable to throwing money at the problem.

Thanks Harry!
Yeah, for sure i need to pay closer attention to what the thing is telling me more measuring and more driving! Thankfully the temperature is now in low teens, so pretty good for the PZeros it is wearing.
If i remember correctly the oil level gauge will show bear minimum now only when hot and idling, but i’ll keep an eye out as well. Anything that can help keeping an eye on the oil level.

Definitely this is way more fun that adding 8-10k eur at it not knowing where the issue was

I may even treat myself with a Steve Wong chip now 😄

[icarp]

no need to suck out the oil, just keep checking the level every 500 km

ian

[Bulatovic]

Aaaand the quote came:
- picking up of the vehicle and disassembly
- cleaning with glassbead and/or vapour blasting
- cylinder heads service with valve guide insertion
- inspection of head studs for corrosion - option to instal custom made inconel ones (unknown price)
- installation of new parts: cylinders and liners, rocker shaft oil seals, oil return tubes, etc.
- 915 gearbox overhaul
- engine fan stripping and re-painting
- assembly and testing (no engine dyno or rolling road)

All of this for the price of €8,400 inclusive of 21% Belgian VAT.

Needless to say i’ll be exercising every possible method to remedy the issue i’m having and do a leakdown, compression and visual sparkplug check before jumping to any conclusion and costly decisions.
Not sure how much it is for the gearbox rebuild, i suppose around 2,000€, but i find the price a bit steep given there’s no case splitting. Was rather hoping to see around 3.5k mark - or am i living in 2010 with these prices?

Anyhow, for that amount i may be renting out a workshop for 6 months, getting all the necessary tools and give it a crack myself

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Bulatovic

Aaaand the quote came:
- picking up of the vehicle and disassembly
- cleaning with glassbead and/or vapour blasting
- cylinder heads service with valve guide insertion
- inspection of head studs for corrosion - option to instal custom made inconel ones (unknown price)
- installation of new parts: cylinders and liners, rocker shaft oil seals, oil return tubes, etc.
- 915 gearbox overhaul
- engine fan stripping and re-painting
- assembly and testing (no engine dyno or rolling road)

All of this for the price of €8,400 inclusive of 21% Belgian VAT.

Needless to say i’ll be exercising every possible method to remedy the issue i’m having and do a leakdown, compression and visual sparkplug check before jumping to any conclusion and costly decisions.
Not sure how much it is for the gearbox rebuild, i suppose around 2,000€, but i find the price a bit steep given there’s no case splitting. Was rather hoping to see around 3.5k mark - or am i living in 2010 with these prices?

Anyhow, for that amount i may be renting out a workshop for 6 months, getting all the necessary tools and give it a crack myself

In 2015 when I blew up my air box and dropped a screw into a piston, I needed to get a top end. The direct work consisted of dropping motor, disassembly, recondition heads, repair of damaged pistons (replacement 2.4 CIS pistons are non-existent), and reassembly. The cost of this was about $9,000. Plus testing to determine the problem, replacement of my air box and a new clutch.

If you are getting a top-end done plus transmission for €8,400, it would almost pay for us to ship motors over there.

[yelcab1]

If you are getting a valve job with new cylinders and pistons and rings, PLUS a gearbox rebuild for $8400 (euros and $ parity), I say stop trying to cut cost and just pay it. Those prices are super cheap compared to the same work in the US.

[FA-18C]

Smoking deal, no pun intended.

[RSTarga]

Originally Posted by Bulatovic

Aaaand the quote came:
- picking up of the vehicle and disassembly
- cleaning with glassbead and/or vapour blasting
- cylinder heads service with valve guide insertion
- inspection of head studs for corrosion - option to instal custom made inconel ones (unknown price)
- installation of new parts: cylinders and liners, rocker shaft oil seals, oil return tubes, etc.
- 915 gearbox overhaul
- engine fan stripping and re-painting
- assembly and testing (no engine dyno or rolling road)

All of this for the price of €8,400 inclusive of 21% Belgian VAT.

Needless to say i’ll be exercising every possible method to remedy the issue i’m having and do a leakdown, compression and visual sparkplug check before jumping to any conclusion and costly decisions.
Not sure how much it is for the gearbox rebuild, i suppose around 2,000€, but i find the price a bit steep given there’s no case splitting. Was rather hoping to see around 3.5k mark - or am i living in 2010 with these prices?

Anyhow, for that amount i may be renting out a workshop for 6 months, getting all the necessary tools and give it a crack myself

That is quite the deal if it includes parts, does he do good work?

[Bulatovic]

Unfortunately that is just the works, pars should be supplied by me
If the parts were included in 8400, i’d have already driven thr car to the guy and let him have it for entire 2023 to enjoy! 😄

[HarryD]

Parts can easily equal or exceed the labor cost.

[Bulatovic]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Parts can easily equal or exceed the labor cost.

Well i can share the partslist i created, for the engine so far i am at around 4700€ including break-in oil, first oil change, filters and stuff.
It includes Mahle cylinders and pistons, Glyco bearings and shells, elring gasket sets, valve guides, chains, chain sliders (elring), ims sprockets, tensioner sprockets, cam sprockets, rocker shaft seals… note that pretty much none of the parts would be Porsche branded, but rather whar Design 911 calls “OE Match Classic”… Porsche everything almost doubles the total bill. And it doesn’t include any head studs, rockers, camshafts, etc…
Gearbox i doubt i’d end up with much less than 2000…

Overall 8400 labour (and that’s without case splitting!) and say 7000-7500 parts…

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Bulatovic

Well i can share the partslist i created, for the engine so far i am at around 4700€ including break-in oil, first oil change, filters and stuff.
It includes Mahle cylinders and pistons, Glyco bearings and shells, elring gasket sets, valve guides, chains, chain sliders (elring), ims sprockets, tensioner sprockets, cam sprockets, rocker shaft seals… note that pretty much none of the parts would be Porsche branded, but rather whar Design 911 calls “OE Match Classic”… Porsche everything almost doubles the total bill. And it doesn’t include any head studs, rockers, camshafts, etc…
Gearbox i doubt i’d end up with much less than 2000…

Overall 8400 labour (and that’s without case splitting!) and say 7000-7500 parts…

At a minimum I think you will need to get your existing rockers and cam shafts reconditioned. If you are not splitting the case, you may not need the rod bearings.

You still need to get a compression and leak-down test. It may save the cost of new P&C's. When I damaged my motor, the compression test was good but I had 25% leak-down in Cylinder 2 and 100% in cylinder 3. Others were ok.

[Bulatovic]

Originally Posted by HarryD

At a minimum I think you will need to get your existing rockers and cam shafts reconditioned.

This I’m dreading 😬. And the price for it is not included in the quote.
I’ll do all the testing and still shop around for advice on best repairshops, also hoping to get some local relevant info from the Classic Porsche Club of Belgium that i just joined.
One step at a time… it’s a lot of money and potential headache involved in all of it, so better to do it wisely!
And my Christmas holiday reading just arrived in a shape of “How to rebuild and modify Porsche 911 engines 1965-1989 - by Wayne R. Dempsey” 😄 gonna be some quiet evening with red wine, blanket and a good book 😁

[FA-18C]

Bula - at the end of the day, try and enjoy the journey. The car will let you know when it is time, like an old dog does. but for now it sounds as if the engine runs strong, so one day at a time. If you find you are stabilized at 1l of oil per 600+ miles. Drive the car and enjoy it and use the time to learn and plan. That is what I have been doing for the entire year. I have a lot to learn, but willing to roll up my sleeves. As I have told others, owning an older air cooled 911 extracts a balance of joy and frustration, and requires patience. As the Mandelorians say, "this is the way..."