85 - dreaded click when trying to start

[davidpsalt]

Ok - progressively got worse over time - sometimes would start fine, other times it would just click at the solenoid/starter - intermittent issue until now - won't every start.
I had replaced the OEM starter with a new hi torque lighter starter a year ago when I hired someone do and engine out top end rebuild due to valve seals leaking and dreaded smoke at startup. It was time.

I have done the following so far: removed the battery, had it tested, tests out fine and fully charged. Cleaned the battery posts and connectors, getting 12.6 reading at battery, getting 12.6 reading at starter. Also replaced the ground strap with a new one.

To be clear, when I turn the ignition switch to start position, I just get a click at the starter. Does not crank/engage the starter/fly wheel. Swapped out my after market hi torque starter and put my OEM starter back in - same result.

Any recommendations on further tests that I can run with my multi meter to isolate the issue? I also replaced the ignition switch a few years ago as it was acting up and causing some electrical issues with the headlights - which all went away after replacing it.

am at a complete loss and am hoping someone can point me in the right direction before I cave and take it the shop for the pro's to fix.

[Wrighteous]

You could apply voltage to the starter on the bench and see if it spins. That could help troubleshoot the starter itself.

Not sure how to troubleshoot an ignition switch, but a multimeter while cranking might provide some insight!

[GH85Carrera]

The electrical part of the Ignition switch can break.

That and the yellow wire from the ignition switch to the starter can be the issue. Good luck tracking down your issue. Please come back and post the fix to your issue.

[spuggy]

The causes of the "click" are either the solenoid sticking or simply not getting enough voltage/current to the solenoid for it to operate.

The starter itself is wired directly to the battery post, so if that isn't getting voltage/current, you would have bigger problems.

Old VWs get the "sticking solenoid" problem too, usually because the grease goes solid. Traditional method to unstick those is to whale on them a little bit. Apparently. I jacked the 911 up to try this once and went "nope"...

My hi-torque starter came with a built-in solenoid. If yours did too, it should be new and work correctly, leaving only leave the "voltage/current to the terminal" part. You can test solenoid operation with a loose 12V battery and some leads. Because it can be helpful to definitively eliminate something from consideration.

If the solenoid itself works, that leaves only the circuit to the terminal. Transmission to body ground strap is important, obviously, as it completes the circuit. Both condition and connection to ground should be good.

It's probably possible for the terminal on the ignition switch to arc inside/get degraded, given enough use/years. However, I don't think any of the pile I accumulated failed that way, and it's probably more likely to be the circuit for the infamous "yellow wire"...

While the voltage present at the yellow wire/solenoid terminal is no indicator of the amount of current the circuit will deliver, there is an inverse - you can rest pretty much assured that if there's a significant voltage drop at the yellow wire on the solenoid terminal when the key is turned to 'Start', it's not going to deliver enough current to operate correctly...

I replaced the electrical portion of the ignition switch more than once - each time it seemed to solve the issue temporarily (remaking the connection at the bulkhead may have helped/made a difference, as voltage drop can be cumulative over multiple poor connections, any one of which may not cause the issue by itself) - only for it to reappear intermittently and get steadily worse (most often in cold and damp conditions).

It's certainly worth cleaning the connector(s) on the ignition switch harness (including inside the plug on the bulkhead) and carefully spreading the connectors on the plug prongs a little to ensure a good, solid contact. It costs you 10-15 minutes, and chances are you'll only improve matters.

My main issue turned out to be the 14-pin connector; quite an "aha!" moment opening it (carefully! most are getting quite brittle now) and seeing 40+ years worth of oxidation and crud on the connectors. Spent 30 minutes cleaning all of them and haven't had a problem for many years now (touch wood, LOL).

Originally Posted by davidpsalt

before I cave and take it the shop for the pro's to fix.

LOL. Remember I said "when cold and damp" above? I flat-bedded mine to my wrench twice when it failed to start on a cold, damp morning. By the time it got to the shop, started on the key flawlessly. Both times...

So when it failed on my driveway again, seemed obvious I was the best person to fix it. And I already knew that the ignition switch & bulkhead connector, starter, solenoid, battery, ground strap etc were all in good shape.

Which got me wondering about what hadn't already been done. And seemed to leave only the 14-pin connector... I pulled it apart and it was very obviously in need of attention. After some 1200 grit and a fiberglass spot remover pen, it hasn't done it since...

Good luck. This can be very frustrating - especially when it's intermittent and you think you had it fixed, only for it to happen again.

But look on the bright side; it's actually a lot easier to fix a "hard" failure than an intermittent one.. If it only happens sometimes, about the only thing you can say, when you think you've fixed it, is "well, hasn't happened since", and this can drag it out for some time....

[john walker's workshop]

The battery clamp to cable interface can corrode inside. Swaged or soldered from the factory, but I've replaced the clamps and solved this particular problem a couple of times. Just a thought.

[911obgyn]

You can climb under and jump from batt+ terminal to spade connector that yellow wire goes and see if starter turns. If it does then its one of the connections previously mentioned.
I had to replace spade connector on my yellow wire when i replaced starter last week.

[SkunkWorks]

I had similar issues over the span of a few months - turned out my 14 pin connector in the engine bay was only half plugged in...

[al lkosmal]

The ground strap from the chassis ground lug to the tranny can become corroded or loose and cause this issue......




regards,
al

PS: found these pix on a previous thread....

[smadsen]

Check the pertinent electrical connections. Then jump it with a known good battery. Also, LIGHTLY tap the solenoid with a hammer (to loosen a stuck solenoid).

[davidpsalt]

Originally Posted by spuggy

The causes of the "click" are either the solenoid sticking or simply not getting enough voltage/current to the solenoid for it to operate.

The starter itself is wired directly to the battery post, so if that isn't getting voltage/current, you would have bigger problems.

Old VWs get the "sticking solenoid" problem too, usually because the grease goes solid. Traditional method to unstick those is to whale on them a little bit. Apparently. I jacked the 911 up to try this once and went "nope"...

My hi-torque starter came with a built-in solenoid. If yours did too, it should be new and work correctly, leaving only leave the "voltage/current to the terminal" part. You can test solenoid operation with a loose 12V battery and some leads. Because it can be helpful to definitively eliminate something from consideration.

If the solenoid itself works, that leaves only the circuit to the terminal. Transmission to body ground strap is important, obviously, as it completes the circuit. Both condition and connection to ground should be good.

It's probably possible for the terminal on the ignition switch to arc inside/get degraded, given enough use/years. However, I don't think any of the pile I accumulated failed that way, and it's probably more likely to be the circuit for the infamous "yellow wire"...

While the voltage present at the yellow wire/solenoid terminal is no indicator of the amount of current the circuit will deliver, there is an inverse - you can rest pretty much assured that if there's a significant voltage drop at the yellow wire on the solenoid terminal when the key is turned to 'Start', it's not going to deliver enough current to operate correctly...

I replaced the electrical portion of the ignition switch more than once - each time it seemed to solve the issue temporarily (remaking the connection at the bulkhead may have helped/made a difference, as voltage drop can be cumulative over multiple poor connections, any one of which may not cause the issue by itself) - only for it to reappear intermittently and get steadily worse (most often in cold and damp conditions).

It's certainly worth cleaning the connector(s) on the ignition switch harness (including inside the plug on the bulkhead) and carefully spreading the connectors on the plug prongs a little to ensure a good, solid contact. It costs you 10-15 minutes, and chances are you'll only improve matters.

My main issue turned out to be the 14-pin connector; quite an "aha!" moment opening it (carefully! most are getting quite brittle now) and seeing 40+ years worth of oxidation and crud on the connectors. Spent 30 minutes cleaning all of them and haven't had a problem for many years now (touch wood, LOL).



LOL. Remember I said "when cold and damp" above? I flat-bedded mine to my wrench twice when it failed to start on a cold, damp morning. By the time it got to the shop, started on the key flawlessly. Both times...

So when it failed on my driveway again, seemed obvious I was the best person to fix it. And I already knew that the ignition switch & bulkhead connector, starter, solenoid, battery, ground strap etc were all in good shape.

Which got me wondering about what hadn't already been done. And seemed to leave only the 14-pin connector... I pulled it apart and it was very obviously in need of attention. After some 1200 grit and a fiberglass spot remover pen, it hasn't done it since...

Good luck. This can be very frustrating - especially when it's intermittent and you think you had it fixed, only for it to happen again.

But look on the bright side; it's actually a lot easier to fix a "hard" failure than an intermittent one.. If it only happens sometimes, about the only thing you can say, when you think you've fixed it, is "well, hasn't happened since", and this can drag it out for some time....

This is all good stuff. I have not yet connected a good battery to the yellow wire connection - I will try that next. So if it activates the starter then the issue has to be along the yellow wire back under the dash - to the firewall connector. I will also check my battery terminal connections to the 4ga wire. I will also check the 14 pin plug as well. All great info and advise. Will report back when I run all these tests and cleaning! Thanks for taking the time to post!

[JSV798]

In my experience (over 30 years) this is a solenoid problem. The contacts get burnt inside the solenoid so either replace the solenoid and/or starter which comes with a new solenoid. If you short the two big nuts on the solenoid with a screwdriver and the starter spins then you know the solenoid has failed. Be prepared for healthy sparking when you do this. Remember that the thick black cable to the starter is always live if the battery is connected. If the starter doesn't spin the the problem lies elsewhere. Note that although the starter should spin when doing this it won't crank the engine as the pinion has not been engaged.

When you say that you are getting 12v at the starter are you checking the black cable or the yellow wire? There will always be 12v on the black cable as it is connected directly to the battery but the yellow wire will show 12v only when the key is turned to the start position.

Roy

[JSV798]

Originally Posted by 911obgyn

You can climb under and jump from batt+ terminal to spade connector that yellow wire goes and see if starter turns. If it does then its one of the connections previously mentioned.

This is a good idea. I think what is being suggested is that the heavy black cable on the solenoid is temporarily connected to the yellow wire on the solenoid. If the starter now turns then the solenoid is good and suggests faulty ignition switch. Engine would turn and start if the ignition is on.

Roy