Heavy Metal! Part Deux - The Carbon Copy

[Jonny042]

I chopped the sunroof stuff out of the car. I was curious to weigh it, because I'd heard some outlandish figures for what this all adds up to...



I was a little surprised it didn't weigh more:



I tossed a spare sunroof panel on the pile:




This isn't everything, mine was missing some parts of the wind deflector, the inside frame, etc. And there's some wiring and a switch, too.

None of this factors into my running weight loss total comparison between Project Heavy Metal and the Carbon Copy, since PHM was a slick-top from birth. I would have just chopped out the whole roof at once, but wanted to do this research along the way.

More importantly, I'm prototyping a bond-in sunroof plug, since now is the time to do it. You can't just take a mold off a sunroof and glue it in, because there's a massive gap to allow for the seals:

[AG81]

Wow. That is a bunch of weight saved.

[chrisbalich]

Originally Posted by AG81

Wow. That is a bunch of weight saved.

If 2017 Chris knew what 2025 Chris knows, the LBDC would be so different.
Jonny (and a couple others) has me wanting to sell it and start fresh.

[AG81]

^
I think you would see a large percentage of the board say the same Chris.

[Jonny042]

Decklid Prototype #1 had an audition today on a car that's not mine. The body that will become the Carbon Copy doesn't really have any part of it that I can use as a reliable reference at present, so Brookieslayers most excellent euro coupe comes in...eagle eyed readers will recognize the car from a few(?) months ago when I took a mold off his non-sunroof roof.

Notice the very Celette-like base the car is on. Lets just say there's no doubt about that tub!

The decklid fits really great, I'm quite pleased. So far it's been a hit with anyone who's seen it in person.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by chrisbalich

If 2017 Chris knew what 2025 Chris knows, the LBDC would be so different.
Jonny (and a couple others) has me wanting to sell it and start fresh.

Well, that right there is the beauty of the 911... endless possibilities!

I think 2025.5 Chris is going to enjoy what you're working on right now immensely, and will thank you for it!

[Shaun @ Tru6]

As usual absolutely mind-blowing amazing work. Can I order a fiberglass version? I want to try nickel plating one.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

As usual absolutely mind-blowing amazing work. Can I order a fiberglass version? I want to try nickel plating one.

Thanks!!

About the glass... seriously?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I've been doing a lot unique nickel plating this year. Other than the roof, windshield frame, etc. I think I could do an entire nickel plated car. And it would probably still be lighter than a steel car.

So if you have a seconds lid you can't sell or a glass lid, I would like to try one.

[Focker]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

As usual absolutely mind-blowing amazing work. Can I order a fiberglass version? I want to try nickel plating one.

Shaun - A client of mine is building a Volvo hot rod that he will be spraying with his product Liquid Metal FX.

I've seen the product in person and it's unreal. (sorry to hijack Jon!!)

https://cadoroplaster.com/collections/liquid-metal-fx?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnui_BhDlARIsAEo9GuuOsS_E6k-CywdfhU4tihVr7ZDRFna40JzwSmsRLZ079mX6ztSLojgaAlnnE ALw_wcB

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Neat stuff, thanks for posting, I'll get some for testing.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

I've been doing a lot unique nickel plating this year. Other than the roof, windshield frame, etc. I think I could do an entire nickel plated car. And it would probably still be lighter than a steel car.

So if you have a seconds lid you can't sell or a glass lid, I would like to try one.

I'll have some smaller parts shortly that might be the perfect application for plating. Not sure there's a need to do a whole car!

Carbon fiber is electrically conductive but fiberglass isn't - are you doing electroless nickel?

I am tempted to try to make some amber glass parts to mimic the look of aged/discolored resin from the old days, the new stuff is colorless and will stay that way for quite a while. There was some discussion a few pages back about dying the resin to get the right look. I'm at the point right now, though, where I don't need anything else on the to-do (or "to buy") list!

[AG81]

Originally Posted by jonny042

i'm at the point right now, though, where i don't need anything else on the to-do (or "to buy") list!

^
x2

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

I'll have some smaller parts shortly that might be the perfect application for plating. Not sure there's a need to do a whole car!

Carbon fiber is electrically conductive but fiberglass isn't - are you doing electroless nickel?

I am tempted to try to make some amber glass parts to mimic the look of aged/discolored resin from the old days, the new stuff is colorless and will stay that way for quite a while. There was some discussion a few pages back about dying the resin to get the right look. I'm at the point right now, though, where I don't need anything else on the to-do (or "to buy") list!

Yes, electroless Jon.

I think a whole car in nickel and a unique clear I make, with a certain surface prep, would be amazing.

[Jonny042]

Hello all! Busy times here, been working on a sunroof plug in my spare time (or which there never seems to be enough!)

This has been done in composite form before, but it my opinion, improperly. Not too hard to identify what could be improved on previous efforts, simply popping a mold off the factory sunroof doesn't do the trick, you'd end up with a massive gap between the plug and sunroof aperture. Not to mention, you need flanges for bonding.

The metal structure of the header rail above the windshield leaves very little wiggle room for fitting a bonding flange, so the Z dimension of the flange is really important. I set the flange dimension from the outer surface at 6-7mm all around with a resulting 5mm resulting bond thickness (perfect for sikaflex PU or the like).

I'll have more pics of this later, but in case it's not obvious, to fit this version of the sunroof panel, you have to hack out the inner structure of the sunroof!

Adding to the outer dimensions to reduce the gap around the perimeter, adding flanges around the perimeter, sanding, priming, filling, sanding some more, priming some more, priming again... ad nauseum!:

[Jonny042]

A perfect pattern makes perfect parts!!!:





Always a bit nerve wracking to slather tooling gelcoat on the pattern!



New mold in the oven to post cure it before it's ready for use:



And the first of several layers of carbon going into the mold:



Elbows up! I'm never been one for hockey, more of a skier and not really a team player. But weighted pucks are really handy, eh?





First prototype in the oven:

[Jonny042]

"Raw" part out of the mold: part is 2-1/2 pounds before paint or clearcoat:

[Jonny042]

I've been working on a little side project. It seems wrong to bolt a 4 pound decklid to a pair of hinges that are well over a pound...

The density of carbon fiber composite is about 1.6g/cm cubed, while steel is about 8g. So if I make these hinges exactly the same as they originally but out of different material, they'd be 1/5th the weight.

So 120g instead of 600! Saving at least a pound.

Yeah yeah, there's always one guy who says "why not just take a dump before you go for a drive?"... he might have a point, but anyone can do that!

Here's a glimpse into the pattern making process. It usually involves a glue gun and signboard to start, and some sort of primer, and lots and lots of head scratching and hard work. Oh, and sanding!

[LJ851]

Incredible work, Jonny. That deck lid is very appealing.

With the sunroof delete panel, do you have to modify the exterior sheet metal of the roof to fit it ? Does it fit with the existing rolled corner that creates the sunroof opening?

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by LJ851

Incredible work, Jonny. That deck lid is very appealing.

With the sunroof delete panel, do you have to modify the exterior sheet metal of the roof to fit it ? Does it fit with the existing rolled corner that creates the sunroof opening?

I do plan to document the full install in pictures but haven't completed it yet. It can be done without disturbing the exterior finish of the roof.

The opening remains the same. The delete panel is made specifically to fit not only the opening (larger on each of the 4 sides by about 2.5mm) but the distance of the flange from the finished surface of the roof and panel is specifically made to allow for bonding with a Sikaflex type material (PU window adhesive). The flange also has to fit under the metal header at the top of the windshield, so it needs to be tight enough to allow that.

There is a rolled edge at the rear of the sunroof opening, but the other 3 sides have a 90 degree flange to which the seal for the sunroof is glued at the factory, and also has the sunroof metal frame spot welded to it.

Here's an idea of the commitment you must make for this install!

Cut just above the spot welds along the scribed line:





And the resulting flange which can be left for stiffness sake:




My intention for this panel is to allow the relatively easy and affordable filling of the sunroof opening without a massive investment in bodywork, and is something that can be accomplished by an adventurous and skilled DIY'er. It will still look like a sunroof, just be 25+ pounds lighter. In case it's not obvious, this is a windows-out project, unless you want to run without a headliner after!

It is not meant for installation and subsequent filling and painting, which would no doubt eventually show through. My recommendation for that would be either a metal filler panel (possibly available from our host?) or a full carbon fiber roof replacement bonded with structural adhesive.

There will still be a gap around the sunroof panel that will need to be filled with the same black adhesive used to install the panel - this will add to the strength of the install.