Heavy Metal! Part Deux - The Carbon Copy

[chrisbalich]

Don't forget that all the weight you're saving is from the heavy end of the car while you spend time in the center of the car where weight has a much lower consequence on handling.

Come to Ruchlos next month and I'll show you how flimsy my drilled hinges (V2) are.

[shoooo32]

Free pass to Ruchlos if you drive down from Canada, Jonny. Rodrigo Morales drove up from Mexico two years ago but we've had zero Canadian representation.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by shoooo32

Free pass to Ruchlos if you drive down from Canada, Jonny. Rodrigo Morales drove up from Mexico two years ago but we've had zero Canadian representation.

That sounds like an awesome idea - maybe 2026!... I would also like to do the HCR and that's been on my radar for some time.

Contrary to what it may appear, I do enjoy driving them, too!

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by chrisbalich

Don't forget that all the weight you're saving is from the heavy end of the car while you spend time in the center of the car where weight has a much lower consequence on handling.

Come to Ruchlos next month and I'll show you how flimsy my drilled hinges (V2) are.

I know we are of similar minds when it comes to this...you'll find this bit interesting.

I just ordered one of these:



I am keenly aware of the problems with weight distribution, and one glaring issue with any plan to drastically lighten the 911 is that it's easier (relative to the weight distribution) to lighten the front than the rear, making a bad problem worse.

These are really simple cars, but there's the odd thing that's more complicated than it needs to be, IMO. One of these is the fact that they added an oil cooler and thermostat to a car that already had one of each of those things.

So I'm eliminating the engine mounted cooler (and one of the oil thermostats) which will save a few pounds from the engine, and also eliminating the oil filter from the tank, which simplifies the matter of building a new oil tank for the front of the car. The oil thermostat will also be replaced and relocated to the front of the car. I plan to rely on a single CSF Carrera cooler with dual fans to provide cooling. It'll be fine.

[chrisbalich]

I still have a new Taormina filter housing in a box in my basement.
I had, and then sold, a large dry-sump tank that was destined for the smuggler's box.

I was planning to relocate the tank, filter, and tstat the front as well. I have a bunch of pics of race cars as well as a very cool tank design that I intend to emulate if I ever get that far.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by chrisbalich

I still have a new Taormina filter housing in a box in my basement.
I had, and then sold, a large dry-sump tank that was destined for the smuggler's box.

I was planning to relocate the tank, filter, and tstat the front as well. I have a bunch of pics of race cars as well as a very cool tank design that I intend to emulate if I ever get that far.

Interestingly Porsche never went to a front mounted oil tank on a street car. Even the Tuthill 911K has a GT3-ish style oil tank mounted directly to the engine. A nice clean solution, but you still need to have lines going to the front of the car for cooling.



I'm sure the reason is that what you DON'T need, with such an arrangement, is a long vent line between the tank and the crankcase. The scavenge portion of the oil pump moves a fair volume of air along with the oil returned to the oil tank.

It's necessary to keep the system closed, and to provide an adequate return path for this air once it's separated from the oil.

Sketch courtesy Smart Racing, who makes a nice tank:



Ideally this return line will not have any low spots, so the standard routing is to tie-wrap it to the rollcage...which I won't have.

I could implant a 3/4" line into the a-pillar, roof structure, and c-pillar. Not sure this has been done before. The other alternative is to provide adequate oil/air separation (which can self-drain back to the tank at the front of the car) and run the line low like the others.

Anyone have any experience with something like this?

[Jonny042]

Oh I should mention - I'm thinking about eliminating the thermostat, and using an electric pump to circulate oil from the tank and through the cooler.

This should increase the cooling capacity by a fair amount (as it won't be trying to cool an air/oil mixture). Still need to give this some thought and determine the GPM required. It would be a low pressure system which is an advantage.

[AG81]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

One of these is the fact that they added an oil cooler and thermostat to a car that already had one of each of those things.

So I'm eliminating the engine mounted cooler (and one of the oil thermostats) which will save a few pounds from the engine, and also eliminating the oil filter from the tank, which simplifies the matter of building a new oil tank for the front of the car. The oil thermostat will also be replaced and relocated to the front of the car. I plan to rely on a single CSF Carrera cooler with dual fans to provide cooling. It'll be fine.

Jon you eloquently put what my argument has been. I fought the 72 oil console and had it machined to accept a thermostat. Added the front CSF carrera fender cooler and finned elephant lines. I added the CSF cooler on the engine. I have the blessing of a more optimal oil tank location but your idea is superior in theory. For all of the work I did I should have done what you have suggested.

[Ooffenhausen]

The hinges look great. They would be sliiiiiiick in amber fiberglass.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by Ooffenhausen

The hinges look great. They would be sliiiiiiick in amber fiberglass.

I've done quite a bit of testing with carbon and carbon/kevlar to determine the relative stiffness of various layups. I have done less so with fiberglass but I can tell you, from my experience so far, it is much more flexible for a given layup and would need to be thicker and heavier.

That said, something funny happens when you post that you're making a part - people automatically chime in with their ideas, and what they would want. Amber fiberglass keeps coming up, time and again. So do carbon fiber ducktails, for that matter.

Of course this isn't surprising, given the fascination most of us have with the 60's and 70's sports cars, sports racers, rally cars, etc.

A mold is a mold, and I can make parts with a wide variety of materials. Sooner or later I'll get some pigment and see if I can make an amber that looks decent. There are also some really neat balsa cores out there.

[dwelle]

amber ducktail?...

[Focker]

Raw Kevlar has that cool amber hue to it as well.

[kmcteer]

Hey Johnny, have you considered an Oil to water heat exchanger? Run the oil tank in the 73 position and water forward to the Carrera cooler location. You could use an electric water pump on the coolant loop to regulate oil temp. Kind of a water to oil cooled engine. Not sure this would be lighter, but may allow more clever packaging and eliminate the awkward front oil tank breather line.

-Kelly

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by kmcteer

Hey Johnny, have you considered an Oil to water heat exchanger? Run the oil tank in the 73 position and water forward to the Carrera cooler location. You could use an electric water pump on the coolant loop to regulate oil temp. Kind of a water to oil cooled engine. Not sure this would be lighter, but may allow more clever packaging and eliminate the awkward front oil tank breather line.

-Kelly

I've been thinking it over a bit more (now that I actually ordered the oil filter console I am committed!!). I don't know if I should try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to the oil cooling portion of it. Might just stick with what I know will work.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by dwelle

amber ducktail?...

Well there you go! I do think that would be cool.

[Jonny042]

Got this pic from the proud owner of an Olive 911S, I sent a sunroof to him and it got stuck with US customs for at least two weeks, it was pretty annoying but he was cool about it.

I half expected him to have it paint-matched to his car but he had it clearcoated, I think it looks great!

[Socbum]

Very impressive stuff.

[dwelle]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

Well there you go! I do think that would be cool.

well, then, take my money! i would buy one...

[LS1951]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

Amber fiberglass keeps coming up, time and again. So do carbon fiber ducktails, for that matter.

Of course this isn't surprising, given the fascination most of us have with the 60's and 70's sports cars, sports racers, rally cars, etc.

A mold is a mold, and I can make parts with a wide variety of materials. Sooner or later I'll get some pigment and see if I can make an amber that looks decent. There are also some really neat balsa cores out there.

I love this idea! There are quite a few guys like me that love the idea of high quality, lightweight parts but also like to keep things period correct and don't need to save every last ounce of weight. I think there would be a fair amount of people interested in amber fiberglass parts made to your standards. Take my money!

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by LS1951

I love this idea! There are quite a few guys like me that love the idea of high quality, lightweight parts but also like to keep things period correct and don't need to save every last ounce of weight. I think there would be a fair amount of people interested in amber fiberglass parts made to your standards. Take my money!

You could paint both sides of the carbon