3.6 Install - It's Alive!

[maxnine11]

Mike, I think Ryan would rather spend a week off DRIVING the car but i hear you!
I can help whenever/whatever he decides.

max

[Vipergrün]

Ryan, sorry I could not make it down. I had a scheduling conflict with my events manager (read wife).

Glad to see the motor is in and you got it running. Bummer about the oil leak, tho.

How does she sound?

-B

[ischmitz]

Ryan,

Max brouhgt up a good point for why the flywheel seal may have failed: crankcase pressure.

I would recomend taking lots of pictures of the seal once you have the flywheel off. I am wondering if it backed out of its seat (maybe due to excessive crankcase pressure) and got torn.

What size is the orifice you machined for the oil breather tube between the tank and the intake? Where exactly is it located?

Ingo

[speeder]

Originally posted by surflvr911sc
I should only need a flywheel seal, flywheel bolts, and two more cases of Mobil 1 (damn!). Can you guys think of anything else I need?

Ryan, sorry to hear about this, but a snafu or two is par. If this is the worst, you're in business!

Also, no reason on earth that you cannot re-use any Mobil 1 that you have to drain for the project, nothing happened mechanically that would have compromised your oil. Just drain it into a pristine plastic oil pan, cover it w/ a piece of cardboard or something while it's out so nothing falls in, then pour it back in! Don't waste perfect oil, bad for environment and wallet. Believe me, your car won't know the difference that it was removed and put back in.

All you need is a clean pan or two and a funnel, I do it all the time. I have some experience w/ this type of minor surgery, email me if you want a hand. I'll come down there.

[TargaRob]

Sorry to hear about your oil leak Ryan. When you decide to replace the seal, me and my dad will be there to help. Engine Drop party II. It should be fairly easy , out and in, in a day.

Max, great pic of my car. It seems you were able to get the "hollywood" view of it.

[Joeaksa]

Ryan,

What did you do for an orfice inline between the crankcase vent? There is not one on mine and do not remember one on my older 911's.

Denis,

Believe that Ryan needs more oil because he pumped the majority of it out on the road coming home!

JoeA

[ischmitz]

Joe,

the orifice should be in the line runing from the oil tank to the intake. It's to allow the engine to idle correctly when the oil filler cap is removed. Otherwise it would suck wrong air through the oil tank and die like mine. I don't have that orifice and my engine dies the second I open the oil filler cap.

If that orifice is way too small it might have caused high positive pressure in the oil tank and in the crankcase. Another very grave situation could be that the motor has excessive blow-by causing the same overpressure situation. I am not sure if that pressure in the crankcase would be enough to push out the seal at the flywheel. I wonder what would be the weakest link/seal once the crankcase gets too much positive pressure. Someone else with more engine experience should chime in here. (John Walker ?!)

I'll post something on the engine rebuild forum.

Ingo

[maxnine11]

targaRob, yes, your car does have a bit of a 'split personality' from one side to the other. LOL ... it will look great with new paint though. keep on saving!!
PS, i sent you a PM earlier this afternoon; check your in box.
max

[trader220]

Your car looks awesome! I am sure you'll have it back to life. Congratz

[surflvr911sc]

You guys are awesome! Thanks for all the advice and offers to help.

You’ve got me thinking here; The restrictor in the line that goes from the oil tank to the intake is ź” I might want to enlarge it a bit since there was no rpm difference at all when the oil cap was removed. Crankcase over pressure, could be.

Second, the seal was installed correctly and I’m 99% positive was not damaged. I remembered today that I use assembly lube to install it. Paul (& I think Ingo) just used motor oil. Wayne suggests CurlT(?) on the out side of it. Maybe the assemble lube was too slick and combined w/ too much crankcase pressure pushed the seal out. Hopefully I will know when I can see it and I will take plenty of pictures.

I’m going to spend the next couple of nights taking things apart and should have the engine out by the end of the week. I’ll let you guys know how I’m doing and when I expect to put it back in.

[ischmitz]

Ryan,

I posted on the engine rebuilding forum about the crankcase pressure issue. WHAT A MESS: crankcase pressure/oil breather question (long) Maybe someone will chime in there.....

Ingo

[CarreraS2]

What color was the seal you used?

If it is anything like my SC, I'd go with the 2 tone brown and black ones. I don't know if the 3.6 seal has any similarities to the SC seal, but I used the all black one on mine, and it leaked. I figured something was wrong with my installation, so I pulled it down and put another all black one (this time bought from the dealer) in. That leaked too. I went through all the checking for crankcase venting, etc. too, hoping for an easy fix!

Then a shop told me there was an updated part, black on the outside and brown Viton on the inside. It even had a factory updated part number. I used that one, and it worked great.

I wouldn't be so sure it was an installation problem. These seem hard to put in wrong.

[Kevin Stewart]

Hi Great job, ive been waiting to post, when i put the seal in there was a ,im gonna call it a spring on the seal, it goes in side the seal and helps it stay tight against the crank (its round about a 1/4 thick), you should have had to use a 2x4 and hammer or something to get the seal in, it should not have been a push in, also i know you say it was correct (please dont think im insulting or questioning your skills) but we all have made mistakes, every year i put my race cars brake pads in backwards, and i have no clue why, i did my 3.6 install by myself, so i know a little about cars, last thing, whats the chance that the flywheel nicked the seal or was the seal nicked when you got it?, or the fly wheel could have went on a little crooked and snagged the seal, im sure you will find the cause, what about wrong part? anyway with only 12 quarts do you have a oil cooler, my car takes 15?, there is no words to describe the power, Kevin

[ischmitz]

SoCal911SC,

At this point we are talking about gushing oil instead of a slight leak. That suggests the seal has been torn to pieces by the flywheel when it came out of its seat. This is different from a slight leak due to to failure of the spring-supported lip that touches the crank. The more I think about this the more I am leaning towards too much pressure in the crank case that:

a) pushed out the seal far enough for the flywheel to chew it up and tear it too pieces.

b) is the reason for the oil to get blown out of the unsealed area before the oil pump picks it up. Remember, we are talking about dry-sump engines here. There isn't supposed to be much oil in the sump that simply seeps out by gravity when the engine is running. But if there is a lot of pressure in the case it'll blow the oil right out.

Let's wait and see what Ryan finds once the engine is out of the car and the flywheel comes of. I bet it's shredded rubber and torn metal where there was a seal before.

On the point of installing the seal here is what I did. I used fresh motor oil to wet the lip that touches the crank. Then I used the old seal flipped over as a guide/buffer to punch the new seal in. I had a hard time to get the new seal started. It always wanted to slip at the opposite site from where I punched it. When it finally started to go in I had to use some good blows to seat if fully. It was a really tight fit. I banged up the old seal pretty good in the process. I have a hard time beliving anything could push that seal out again.

Ingo

Ingo

[Embs]

surflvr911sc, If you installed your seal a good while before you installed this engine and ran it for the first time, the seal may have stuck to one small spot on the crank, thus ripping the crap out of it on first start up. I have been told that you should turn your motor over at least twice weekly whether it is in or out of the car. I realize this advice is a day late and a $$ short.

I think you have the record for the cleanest 3.6 install of all time!

[dickster]

bummer.

we used to use a liberal coat of engine oil for lubing new seals on installation, and be careful to drift them in square.

i dont think that was crankcase pressure - surely you'd have oil in the intake and a very smokey exhaust if that was the case.....

[surflvr911sc]

Good point Todd, but I figured the assembly lube would not allow that to happen. ??

Can somebody check the flywheel seal part number for me?

This is what Pelican lists.
K-113-264-40 - Seal Crankshaft Rear, 928, supercedes to 999-113-426-41

[Embs]

Originally posted by surflvr911sc
Good point Todd, but I figured the assembly lube would not allow that to happen. ??

That's what I figured, and yet I had a large pool of expensive oil after my first seal replacement (gone bad). When I got the flywheel off, I could see the large (pencil eraser) sized chunk of missing seal. Now when I do them, I leave them very wet and make sure I rotate the engine every other day. I think it may be worse if the engine sets in a very warm/dry area. New seals are way more "grabby" then ones that are broken in.

[Thomas Owen]

My opinion only here- if you think crankcase pressure did this I would look elsewhere. If the pressure was high enough to blow that seal out seems to me you would have had oil coming from everywhere. Oil return tubes for instance...You probably got a bad seal or bad install.
Good luck,

[tholyoak]

Ryan

Maybe I am misreading your post but did you apply assembly lube to the outside circumfrence of the seal? If so this is a big no-no and most likely the seal popped out. I would recommend cleaning the case area well and degreasing with acetone or IPA. Apply curil, loctite 574 or hylomar to the outside circumference if paranoid about leaks. Apply some assembly lube to the seal lip where it contacts the crank surface and pack the backside with assembly lube to prevent the spring from inadvertantly poping out.

The restrictor should be intalled on the oil tank line to the intake boot not the crankcase.

Just my $0.02.

Todd