MAF Conversion Kit Porsche911 Carrera 3.2

[david.avrahami@]

The above kit is sold by a german company for 719 Euros.

MY QUESTIONS ARE: 1. IS IT A WORTH WHILE DEVICE FOR A 1987 CARRERA 2. WHY IS A SIMILAR PRODUCT BEING OFFERED IN EXCESS OF $2000 IN THE US? IS IT DIFFERENT, AM I MISSING SOMETHING?

Here is the write up on it:

In the period from 1980 to about 1990, the systems for engine control Bosch (Motronic) were developed with flap-controlled sensors for load detection. This air flow meter provided to a current volume flow (m³ / h) based voltage to the control unit in order to support the calculation of the required injection amount, and the optimum ignition angle. These sensors operate mechanically and so subject to constant wear. You also have the disadvantage of forming by standing in the airflow damper resistor and thereby lead to a loss of pressure in the intake.



In later Motronic systems, these sensors have been replaced by air mass sensors that oppose a lower resistance to the airflow and also have a much better response. For retrofitting existing systems - especially in motor sport - we offer a kit that changes based on the modern HFM5 MAF technology and is fully compatible with the original mechanical air flow sensors. The MAF kit has the same mounting dimensions and adapts the original air box.



The integrated adapter cable in the control unit, the mass information (kg / h) of the MAF sensor mathematically precise information on appropriate volume (m³ / h) converted and sent to the engine control unit. There is no calibration required. The sensor immediately returns the correct data. Due to the more modern sensor technology also significantly more accurate and much faster than it ever was the old air flow meter.



The advantages are a noticeable increase in line over the entire speed range due to the lower pressure drop in the intake. The engine runs quieter and tangible response to movements of the accelerator spontaneous. At idle, the idle speed is reached much faster and kept stable. Of course, the assembly of the kit is done without any permanent modifications to the car, so that can be produced by the rear armor at all times of the original state easily again.

Scope of delivery:

Original Bosch sensor HFM5
Adapter cable with integrated control unit
Adapter for air filter box with hex nuts
Connection hose with hose clamps
Fits the following models:

Porsche 911 Carrera 3.2 (all)

[pooder]

See this thread on my current MAF project.


http://http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/851912-my-87-3-4-maf-project.html

[Arne2]

There is a considerable difference. Since MAF and AFM units don't output exactly the same, you have account for that somehow. The system linked in the previous post is a matched MAF and injectors, with a DME re-programmed to accept the different data output from the MAF. The cheaper package from Germany includes just the MAF and a special cable witch is "translating" the output to simulate the output of the AFM.

No question in my mind that the more expensive solution (with custom DME) will be more accurate, and give the best results, especially if custom tuned properly for the given engine.

The cheaper package may work OK on an otherwise stock 3.2 for normal use. I'd consider it as a replacement for a worn AFM, perhaps. I would not want to trust the data translation for anything beyond simple stock replacement.

In short, there may be a place for both. But the more expensive one is a better engineered package.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by david.avrahami@

The above kit is sold by a german company for 719 Euros.

MY QUESTIONS ARE: 1. IS IT A WORTH WHILE DEVICE FOR A 1987 CARRERA 2. WHY IS A SIMILAR PRODUCT BEING OFFERED IN EXCESS OF $2000 IN THE US? IS IT DIFFERENT, AM I MISSING SOMETHING?

David,

1. IS IT (MAF) A WORTH WHILE DEVICE FOR A 1987 CARRERA - consider that a true Maf system: the right Maf unit matched to the engine's air flow, along the right set of injectors, plus 'new' code making it all work together perfectly. Yes. it is smart investment in many ways: its more precise than the old AFM, the old AFM's resistor plate wears as well as its internal moving parts, the old AFM cannot precisely deliver what is needed as you move toward WOT (wide open throttle), Sal's Maf system, as opposed to other's, can compensate for altitude.

2. WHY IS A SIMILAR PRODUCT BEING OFFERED IN EXCESS OF $2000 IN THE US? The euro product you noted is about $800 US today. The difference between the two 'systems' is night and day. The euro product does not appear to include new injectors, it probably does not have a new coded ECU (montronic box under the seat), the conciseness between the two in terms of accuracy is far apart. And, I can tell you, personally, the technical support Sal provides is worth every penny +. One of the most frustrating situations is when you purchase a product from a supplier and there a days of lag between responses in technical support..... Sal is above board with tech support, one of the few!

[david.avrahami@]

Thanks Charles!

[88coupe]

I installed that kit last year and am very happy with it. Noticed better mpg and snappier throttle right away. There is a thread on here where it was previously discussed in 2014. I know there is at least one other user on here who had similar results as mine.

Cheers

Chris

[Tippy]

It states clearly it converts properly.

Install it and enjoy all the great benefits of a MAF!

[david.avrahami@]

I would like to see what Sal has to offer first...but please answer this question.
I have a SW chip that was complementing my free flow 100 cell cat and free flow 1 in1 out Monty muffler. Do I need to change the chip?

[88coupe]

That's a question Sal would have to answer. But the kit I have, pictured above, supports any SW or other chip without any modification.

[scarceller]

I'm sure the MAF in this post works but how well? Making a MAF mimic a AFM has been done often with varying degrees of success but you need to consider a few point:

- The MAF auto corrects for Air Temp and Altitude, the AFM does not so the DME does the compensations with AFM. However, in the 84-89 cars the altitude comp is a compromise since it only has a baro switch (not a baro sensor). The switch closes at 1000 meters and the DME removes -6% fuel when it sees it closed. But continue climbing up to say 2500 meters and you'll again be running rich.

- The MAF response time to air flow changes is better than 10ms while the AFM has a heavy mechanical door and the AFM has a response time of more than 100ms!

You certainly could take a MAF, massage the signal and turn it into an AFM signal but why do that if you can simply leave the MAF signal as is feed it to the DME and then properly model the MAF device in the software, That's what my system does.

I in no way want to say the device in this posting won't work as most likely it will do the job.
But you need to understand the basics and differences between MAF and AFM then make a choice what product you want.

I'd be curious to see how well this MAF here can compensate for high altitude and would it do better than the stock AFM? My system is currently going into a car that will be used from sea level to 10,000 feet.

[88coupe]

It works great for me, and I'm not here to start a comparison. Your product sounds great Sal, but I think actual testing needs to be done before assumptions are made.

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by 88coupe

It works great for me, and I'm not here to start a comparison. Your product sounds great Sal, but I think actual testing needs to be done before assumptions are made.

Agree, I'm in the process of more extensive pilot testing on my unit now. As I said the MAF in this post certainly fits a need to simply replace aging AFM units that need service. My system is attempting to provide performance gains primarily for engines with extensive mods and increased displacements. The 3.4L I'm doing now is an example of a engine that on the dyno has exhibited signs of an intake restriction. We can see -2PSI of intake vacuum still present at hi-RPMs a clear indication something from the Throttle Body toward the Air filter is restricting flow.

[david.avrahami@]

Thanks Sal...I am in no rush to change things but definitely interested to see and hear more about your product has to offer once it is ready.

[Trog]

Vitesse offers a MAF kit for the Motronic, however I have no idea how it compares to current offerings?

Mass Air Flow Meter

[88coupe]

I disagree that this kit is simply a replacement part with no performance gains. Based on my own experience as well as Bruce Anderson's. By adding a MAF system to a 3.2 there were measurable gains from 3500rpm up. (Performance Handbook, pg 179, Bruce Anderson). The test engine did have a performance chip and SSI exhaust prior to the MAF addition.

Your setup may provide even more gains, but claiming this kit does not doesn't seem correct.

[stlrj]

Found the link. Too bad it's in German.

Umrüstsatz MAF Kit Porsche911 Carrera 3.2 - DMEshop24

[david.avrahami@]

This german site is the the one I described in my initial posting...there is a feature in there to have it translated.

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by david.avrahami@

This german site is the the one I described in my initial posting...there is a feature in there to have it translated.

Or just use Google Translate!

Here's an Impact Bumpers thread with some user experience:
MAF - 3.2 Carrera - Impact Bumpers

[cliyde]

Originally Posted by 88coupe

I disagree that this kit is simply a replacement part with no performance gains. Based on my own experience as well as Bruce Anderson's. By adding a MAF system to a 3.2 there were measurable gains from 3500rpm up. (Performance Handbook, pg 179, Bruce Anderson). The test engine did have a performance chip and SSI exhaust prior to the MAF addition.

Your setup may provide even more gains, but claiming this kit does not doesn't seem correct.

Agree. Been using the Gekkatec MAF setup (no longer avail) for years now and saw noticeable improvements day 1 in throttle response and gains in low/high end. Mid-range, however, did not change. My dyno results showed 208HP to the wheels which is about 248CHP. 911 and Porsche world also did a before/after comparison with Gekkatec which showed 10HP increase. 911 and Porsche World Magazine Visit AmD.

Sal, I'm very interested in your MAF setup, are you planning to bring these to market? Which phase of development are you currently in? I'd be willing to offer up my car as a "test mule" if it helps further progress. In the past you and I conversed several times on Motronic programming for a 3.2 turbo conversion, you might remember... I am looking for a more refined MAF option out there and wondering if testing your MAF with a turbo could add value to your development?

New 911 product pre-announcement.

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by cliyde

Sal, I'm very interested in your MAF setup, are you planning to bring these to market? Which phase of development are you currently in? I'd be willing to offer up my car as a "test mule" if it helps further progress. In the past you and I conversed several times on Motronic programming for a 3.2 turbo conversion, you might remember... I am looking for a more refined MAF option out there and wondering if testing your MAF with a turbo could add value to your development?

My MAF setup is going from early stages to readily available very soon. I'm just now offering the system to very experienced engine builder only. Do not want to derail this thread.
Best to PM me to discuss.