Cross pollination as to joint failure. Could have lost a MFI car in slightly worse situation.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/115586-snap-pow-vroom-clunk-clunk-clunk-gosh-now-what.html

Spring is here!

Potential moonie source:
https://socalautoparts.com/product/cv-joint-hardware-install-kit/

https://socalautoparts.com/product/cv-joint-lock-plate/

Do you know if the lock plates (moon plates) for the 8mm bolts are available. I cannot find those.
All I found were the 10mm ones.
Tried to look for p/n 901 332 191 00, according to what I read in this post that is the old 8mm lock plate.
Do you have a part number for the late 8mm Porsche lock plates ?

Don't think Porsche specified moon plates on the 8mm. I bought some from empi if I recall but ended up not using them.

Look for EMPI 875081. Found one at amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Empi-Type-Torque-Washer-Buggy/dp/B003KKF8N6. I've been using these with some success. I sourced them from local parts shop who has lots of VW bug/ baja parts.

So I just put the available axle assemblies from Pelican on my '82 SC and I'm unsure of the gasket situation. On both my differential and wheel hub flanges I had recesses for gaskets, but no recesses on the axle flanges. I also did not receive any gaskets with the axles. On top of that, I didn't have any gaskets on the differential flanges but did have them on my wheel hub flanges (though one was mostly chewed up and displaced), and it was the wheel hub flanges that were leaking!

Reviewing this thread and others I figure I'm mostly okay without the gaskets, but what am I risking here?

Also I didn't use lock washers or moon washers as I didn't have them before, but am diligent with proper torquing and surface cleaning. I'll also check them before too much driving.

Here's the link to the axles I bought: https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/92333203302M60.htm?pn=923-332-033-02-M60&bt=Y&fs=0&SVSVSI=0798

no Schnorr lock washers is the big problem

get some moon plates too

then remove 2 cap screws at a time and add them

you can do w/o gaskets

Not to be too can-of-wormsy but I had them on without lock washers and moon plates since I last dropped my engine and they were fine and dandy, nothing ever backed off. Unless the clamping forces are way out of line with the new ones vs the old I wouldn't expect problems under appropriate torque.

When I popped the old ones off they were all nice and tight, too, after even a few HPDE events and ten thousand miles.

David - I am with you. I've had CVs off and on way more often than about anyone short of having a shop or the like. Eventually got to set and forget, never an issue.

Randy, though, ever the scientist, has told us he once did an experiment - he left off the (new) Schnorrs on one or two bolts. After a while checked things. The one(s) without the Schnorrs had loosened. So he has a pretty strong basis for recommending them. If that had happened to me, maybe I'd feel the same way.

But it hasn't, so I don't. Brain perhaps permanently damaged by Caroll Smith's engineering explanation of bolts in his book on fasteners.

It is pretty hard to see what the moon plates add - just a thick washer. The CV is basically incompressible, so you don't need to spread the load on it. The boot flange/holder is different, thin sheet metal of no special hardness - if, like me, you don't use any washers at all, it squishes some, more as there is more R&R going on. But this has never caused a loss of tension on the bolts for me. And Porsche, at least for some periods, gave up on moon plates.

Oh - if you use moon plates, you need longer bolts. It would be a good time to switch to the 12 point variety, though you can't get the 12 point socket part at your local Home Depot.

But removing and retightening a bolt or two isn't going to damage whatever grease seal you have, so you are good to go.

Just drive it. When rechecking the torque on the bolts after some miles - a hundred or so? - look to see if you have grease coming out. If you do, wipe it off carefully, and wrap the whole CV with silver body tape. It will extend over the flanges, and a bit more, but most importantly will cover the parting lines, so to speak. You usually can find this at places which sell automotive paints and body repair stuff. Or, doubtless, off the Internet.

That should keep the grease from getting out, if any tried.

There is another thing which is worth doing, but may be difficult on these axles. If you put a small tube, like half a brake cleaner spray can red little tube, under the rubber where the boot seals to the axle, you will prevent the side to side motion of the axle and CV inner - and there is such motion - from creating air pressure inside the CV and boot. No pressure to try to make some grease ooze out is good. Since I just use zip ties, not the metal clamps, on my boots, this is simple to do. But a determined guy could figure out a way to do this.

Thanks for the feedback. What did Smith say about bolts in his fasteners book? I haven't read it.

I read that book too, but apparently it damaged a different part of my brain...

There is an old post by Grady Clay about the advantages of the moon plates, but I don't recall what that adv. was.

I do recall that he thought they dropped them as a cost-saving measure when under financial duress in the 1980s...


A good Covid project for someone would be to search up all the posts by Grady and collet them into a bible...

In Screw to Win, he said a LOT of things - I photocopied a couple dozen pages from the book that were of particular interest. I was going to post excerpts for the late, great Jim Sims to comment on, but I lost them and he died. Another compilation exercise for someone would be to search up his posts...

Here is one item:

"safety wiring will contribute virtually nothing to the task of preventing a bolt from loosening to the point where effective levels of residual stress disappear"

- Caroll Smith

Post #9 - http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/449523-moon-plates-necessary-cv-joint-replacement.html

I find it interesting that my 2014 Cayman has them...

Buy the book: Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing Handbook, Carroll Smith (RIP). Sure to be still in print.

I'll look for it, thanks. I very much enjoyed Tune to Win so I'm interested in more of his content. That mix of deep experience laid over an engineering foundation is a real treat.

You need a thick washer when the boot flange is flimsy.

BTW, a friend lost both drive shafts in his Cayman ~1200 miles after having the gearbox replaced at a Porsche Center....

YEA,

I am drilling holes in the bolts to tie them with SS wire that holds all of this together, since I am replacing two boots!

Safety wire is really not worth the effort. It won't stop the bolts from loosening to the point where clamping force is lost.

Someone - Smith? - also said safety wire just means the bolts won't fall off when they get loose. Might be valuable in some applications where the shear strength of the bolts is what matters (like, say, a seat belt mount), but not for repetitive stresses. Rod bolts, for instance, don't have their nuts safety wired. And properly tightened don't come loose, either.

Of course, well done safety wiring looks impressive. And it is required for lots of aircraft applications, whether valuable or not. But a lot of extra work for no gain.

Yes, we don't do that on First Level Hull Valve on Submarines...

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was in Screw to Win

The wire IS pretty - and keeps the bolt out of your turbofan...



and BTW - dig up the old threads on split-ring lock washers....

Yeah safety wire is more so loose bolts don't end up in places they shouldn't I understand.

JJ - you wore the dolphins? You are saying that despite all the terrific safety stuff (beefed up after disasters) there are critical fasteners, with procedures for tightening them to ensure they don't loosen, etc, which don't require safety wire? Does anything get safety wired on those boats?

Walt, yes but the were vertical (Ship Diver).

Wire are use on very few items (I'm going to look at the drawing package so I can sleep tonight...). Tab washer are more comment and a variety of Loctite.

I can confirm this

I just pulled the axles off my car last night. I'm dropping the engine and transmission and found the CV joints at the tranny were worn with almost no grease in them so rather than rebuild, I thought I'd just go with rebuilt axles. I ordered them from our host.

I didn't find any moon plates or lock washers. You can also see in the photos that there's no metal clips on the narrow side of the boots. I'm the second owner of my car. The prior owner had a shop in MD do a fair amount of work before I bought it in 2012. I guess they reassembled the axles without those clips.

I did notice, particularly on the tranny side, that there's enough gunk in the hex heads of the bolts to prevent getting good purchase with the allen wrench. I was picking away at each one with an ice pick but found spraying brake cleaner in each one worked faster and better.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1697026023.jpg

IMO, you should find some replacement moon plates and lock washers. I've had CV joint bolts loosen up, so do everything the factory did to keep them tight. Plus blue Loctite.

I installed new moon washers, Schnorr lock washers and bolts. My SC was missing the moon washers as well. The best buy I was able to find was here: https://www.jbugs.com/product/87-5081.html

Good luck

I got my rebuilt axles from our host. One of them had clearly been sold before, poorly packaged back up and returned. The protective plastic cap and mesh boot weren't attached at one end. I guess our host doesn't inspect returns before shipping them back out. I hate wasting time returning things.

Keep it or return it?http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1697229996.jpg

People often have to return things after they unpackaged and discover that it doesn't fit right. BTDT.
If it doesn't look like it was actually used, I'd keep it. It's gonna be "used" soon enough, right?

This amazing thread is absolutely overdue for a bump, and I need some help please. Following this thread and others, I decided to upgrade to the later Carrera axles on my '81SC.

To start, some info from the late, great Grady Clay from post #243:

Missing from that list are the washers under the big axle nuts, 928.331.591.02. The older washers standard on the SC will not fit.


In my case I decided to buy new billet transmission axle flanges from CMS, with their spacers since I have an LSD. And while I had everything apart, I installed new wheel bearings. All good there.

HELP: New bearings are done, wheel hubs pressed back in, new transmission flanges installed, and 911.332.024.16 axles procured from our host (rebuilt GKN/Lobro, GKN part 300758.) Except... the axles are too short. Verified with Pelican that I received the correct axles, and that the GKN part numbers are correct for the application. These are not the Turbo axles. Obviously, I'm missing something. All input welcome!


Pics of the new vs. old axles:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754473881.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754473881.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754473881.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754473881.jpg

Do you need to update the outboard hub for this conversation as well?

Maybe not the most helpful question, but I don't see it mentioned in your post and I do see it mentioned in Grady's old posts.

That is an excellent question. I just checked PET now, both for SC's up to '83, and Carreras from '84-, both show 911.331.065.33 as the wheel hub for the non-turbo cars.

EDIT: PET from '87- shows the same part number for the wheel hub as well on non-turbo cars.

I have the hubs from a SC (so for 6 bolt M8 100mm) on my car and I have used CVs (with stubaxles) from a both a 69 and a later G50 car. They just bolt in. I think they are basically the same from the late 60's to the late 80's 3.2. A 964 didn't fit if I remember correctly....

At issue here, is that I'm upgrading to the later 108mm versions that have the stub axle permanently welded to the outboard end of the half shaft. So there is no separate stub axle with flange. And it appears that my new axles are 20mm too short.

I'm not sure I see how you could have used a G50 axle, as it wouldn't mate to the 100mm 6xM8 transmission flanges.

There were changes around '76 (by memory, it's all in this thread) to the 100mm CVs and flanges, and a change again to the 108mm with integrated stub axle sometime in 1986.

Exactly, the 3.2 half shaft is a one piece with the stub axle.

Yeah, I have a G50 transmission. Originally I had a 901 and that was about the same width as the G50. A 915, if you have that, might be narrower.

20 mm too short sounds like a lot! Are you sure about that??

Have you looked here: https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/596183-cv-axle-cross-reference.html
The length of the late 108mm and the 100mm axles should almost the same.

I'm going to piggyback a quick question onto this thread. My SC has a torn inner boot that I'm going to replace soon. I have a new boot. Does any of the hardware need to be replaced when R&Ring axles/CVs?

No, not really. But if the bolt are allen heads they might get a little sloppy and then it can be worth replacing them before they get rounded.
New schnorr washers might be prudent, but even new arent that great. If you want some lock washers thats really good, nord lock is the choice, but you need longer bolts for them.

UPDATE: I would like to formally announce that I am a doofus!

A friend asked me if I'd pulled on each end of the axle to see if it needed to be expanded a little. The thought had crossed my mind, but I had no idea that these things expand like an accordion! The CV's were a bit compressed from the factory, and with a little pull they stretched right out. In they went, all torqued up, ready for a test drive!

So it was my turn to be an idiot so someone else won't have to. Thanks for the input everyone SmileWavy

With moon plates and Schnorr washers, just as Grady would want to see it:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754506280.jpg