track safety thread - roll call what's the correct approach

[dotorg]

Originally posted by widebody911

I think we need to step back and ask "what is the purpose of a DE?" At face value, it would appear that the intention is to allow people to drive their cars on a race track in order to learn better car control, hence the "education" part of the name.

I always thought that "E" was "Event". These are not professional instructors, its a fallacy to pretend the events put on by the major organizations are "Education". They're not, they're private track days, arranged for people to have fun driving their cars in ways they can't on the street.

There's enough education provided to novices to make them acceptably (arguably) safe on the track, and people tend to like calling them "Education" in the vain hope that if they stuff their car their normal insurance will cover it. The fact that the instructors are not professional, and do not have a managed set of skills and teaching credentials means its really wishful thinking to consider them "education".

[930LDR]

Someone had brought up the effectiveness of the foam collars or donuts. I see many instructors and students utilizing these devices but actually just heard from the safety head at Road America that tests have actually shown that these can do more harm than good in an accident. The tests that he has seen show that they can act as a pivot point causing your chin to roll over them and actually causing a greater extension of the neck.

Has anyone else heard or read such reports? Any imperical evidence would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[widebody911]

Originally posted by dotorg
I always thought that "E" was "Event". These are not professional instructors, its a fallacy to pretend the events put on by the major organizations are "Education". They're not, they're private track days, arranged for people to have fun driving their cars in ways they can't on the street.

That's a good point; I've always heard "Education"

I guess we still need to define the purpose of the events in order to come up with equipment and event guidelines.

[JeremyD]

From the PCA site link "Club Racing"

at the bottom of the page

The Porsche Club of America also offers an alternate on track driving experience called Driver's Education (DE). The mission and purpose of the DE Program is to provide a safe, structured and controlled teaching and learning environment. The PCA DE Program is designed so the participant can improve his or her driving abilities and acquire a better understanding of vehicle dynamics and driving safety at various tracks around the country.

[JeremyD]

PCA minimum standards

http://www.pca.org/drivers_ed/standards.html

[gbaker]

Originally posted by 930LDR
Someone had brought up the effectiveness of the foam collars or donuts. I see many instructors and students utilizing these devices but actually just heard from the safety head at Road America that tests have actually shown that these can do more harm than good in an accident. The tests that he has seen show that they can act as a pivot point causing your chin to roll over them and actually causing a greater extension of the neck.

Has anyone else heard or read such reports? Any imperical evidence would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

This speaks volumes:



A donut helps with muscle fatigue but it only works in compression, so it can't hold your head on.

[Todd Simpson]

There's still an emphasis on education at the PCA events I've attended. Recently the focus has moved into the white (intermediate) group. One region has a classroom session for white drivers and another had instructors walk down the pit lane and offer to ride with uninstructed drivers.

I wonder if California events are more or less safe than others? I don't have stats handy, but until this recently, incidents at NorCal tracks seemed rare, yet I read that at some events elsewhere, bent metal is common. Is it because California tracks tend to be more 'open' with liberal runoff room?

No doubt. As an east coaster I'm surprised by the "parade laps" and other scary stuff I read about here. I'd bet we have less OTE's due to reduced runoff.

Here's what a lot of Watkins Glen looks like. If you go off, you will hit something. Large styrofoam blocks are strategically placed for DE's and they've made some recent changes to help run off but it's still tight in many places.

[Todd Simpson]

Video of the Glen.

Tour of Watkins Glen

[911teo]

I am in the same boat as the starter of the thread. Daily driver and DE car at the same time.

After spending the weekend researching the subject this is what I have decided to do:

-DAS roll bar (bolt in, 100% reversible)
-Isaac intermediate
-6 point harness
-Nomex suit
-fire estinguisher

I already have Recaro PP seats and I am still on the fence for the window net (with no full cage there is no protection on the right side).

Still there are a lot of questions in my mind (which harness... 2' 3'? where/how do I attach the harness to the chassis?) but be sure that I am going to the next DE with all the proper gear.

All this obviously on top of all the other good things (8/10th driving, brakes, susp etc up to par, no-ego etc) that people here have indicated.

[SergioK]

Originally posted by dotorg
The fact that the instructors are not professional, and do not have a managed set of skills and teaching credentials means its really wishful thinking to consider them "education".

Come out to any of the BMW CCA driving schools in California and say that.

[Emission]

Originally posted by SergioK
Come out to any of the BMW CCA driving schools in California and say that.

I'd have to agree with SergioK on this one.

I credit 90% of my track driving skills to BMWCCA Instructor education. Though I don't technically "race" so you can't measure my speed or skills, I do think I drive pretty well.

BMWCCA events included classroom time (more for beginners), and close one-on-one in-car instruction with radios (so you aren't yelling at each other). The instructors are highly skilled, and very patient. They also take the time to customize their teaching as you advance and need to work on specifics (hitting the line, throttle steering, etc...).

IMHO, I'd rather have a BMWCCA instructor teach me in my car than find myself behind the wheel of a Ford Mustang at Bondurant then try to translate those skills into rear-engine techniques later!

Both BMWCCA and PCA instructors have a lot to offer.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Oh, please. In my work as a car writer, I've ridden with and been informally instructed by a dozen or more truly world-class racecar drivers over the years,from Eric Carlsson to Hurley Haywood to Tom Kristensen. I've also been enthusiastically doing DEs for several years now, and I can tell you that typical DE instructors and seriously good drivers/intructors are on two differen planets, if not two different solar systems.

I have a friend and neighbor who is a Quattro Club (or whatever it's called now) DE instructor. He's never been in anything faster or more race-prepped than his own moderately modified quasi-S6, and he's scary enough that several people in our local ambulance corps (where he and I are both volunteer drivers) refuse to ride with him.

I don't mean he's the paradigm for all DE instructors, I just mean it's a seriously mixed bag.

Stephan

[TimT]

Some very valid points have been raised in this thread.

.

and do not have a managed set of skills and teaching credentials means its really wishful thinking to consider them "education"

I disagree with that statement, Ive been instructing going on 7 years, and have been through instructor programs with organizations other than PCA.

BMWCCA has a top notch DE program, I believe PCA would do well to emulate them.

The point of these instructor programs are to instill a set of skills, or methods to allow the student to safely explore the limits of his or her vehicle.

Most use mentor/student simulations. allowing the prospective instructor to assess personalities, and tailor their instruction to suit.

PCA has just in the past year or two instated a National instructor certification program. This is intended to level the playing field regarding instructors.

I havent read all of this post, just the preceding two pages, so I hope Im not re-hashing someone else views.

as to the above posted safety equipment

[QOUTE]
-DAS roll bar (bolt in, 100% reversible)
-Isaac intermediate
-6 point harness
-Nomex suit
-fire estinguisher
[/QOUTE}

with a six point harness you need a seat that works with it, the nomex is fine if overkill...

the 2.5LB extunguisher has a farts chance in a high wind of putting out a fire..

if your on fire STOP AT THE NEAREST FLAG STATION

of course there are dedicated instructors, and there are those that want to sign students off ASAP

yikes I havent contributed this much to a thread in awhile

hope it makes sense

[dotorg]

Originally posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson
Oh, please. In my work as a car writer, I've ridden with and been informally instructed by a dozen or more truly world-class racecar drivers over the years,from Eric Carlsson to Hurley Haywood to Tom Kristensen. I've also been enthusiastically doing DEs for several years now, and I can tell you that typical DE instructors and seriously good drivers/intructors are on two differen planets, if not two different solar systems.

That is precisely my point. DE's are about getting track time, not driving instruction, regardless of organization. Quattro is top-notch, just like BMW and PCA, but you can't compare what you get there to a real race school... and the safety records support that.

I've had some very good instructors at DE's before, but a few good instructors and a few very talented drivers does not mean students tend to get a real education where performance driving is concernerd. Any idiot can drive 120mph around a track when nothing goes wrong, driving education is about teaching people what to do when something does go wrong. Most DE organizations focus on "the line", being smooth and things like that -- intended, legitimately to keep you out of trouble, but focus very little on improving skills when trouble finds you. Unfortunately people have died as a result.

Some of the best instructors I've had were the ones who said "this is a safe corner to go off, take it faster and risk spinning. Learn to control the car when that happens". DE's seem to focus on the "drive smooth to drive fast" mantra, and in my experience having run with a number of organizations over the years, the most important part -- teaching people how to control the 4000lbs machine they're driving -- is far too understated. A few emergency avoidance drills in the green group doesn't cut it.

[SergioK]

Originally posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson
I can tell you that typical DE instructors and seriously good drivers/intructors are on two differen planets, if not two different solar systems.

I don't know what you consider to be a typical DE instructor.

I can tell you that the 'typical BMW CCA instructor' is typically someone who has come up the ranks of the BMW CCA driving school program. Someone who started out on the bottom rung and through demonstration of their skills and capability has eventually made it to the instructor ranks. Sure, any group is as weak as it's weakest link. But again, come out to any of the BMW CCA driving schools in California and see for yourself.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

And you are judging their competence by exactly what previous experience or competence? Believe me, I don't mean to sound like I'm doing a mine's bigger than yours thing, because this 68-year-old wimp isn't, it's just that when you are saying these instructors are excellent, one should know what you're comparing them to.

This thread seems to have reached a point of asking exactly what these people, these "instructors," are expected to impart. I recently attended a commercial two-day DE event run by an organization that prided itself on not assigning instructors but on having whoever was available jump into whatever cars needed instructors. Fortunately, I was in a run group that could run solo, because after riding with three differen guys--"go here, no, go there, do this, no do that..."--I said the hell with it, lemme just work on it myself.

Stephan

[Jeff Alton]

I have had great instruction from 24 hours of Daytona winners and from factory 962 drivers. I have also had some rather suspect instruction. So I guess it really is a mixed bag...

Jeff

[emcon5]

Originally posted by 911teo
I am still on the fence for the window net (with no full cage there is no protection on the right side).

All window nets I have seen attach to the roll cage, top and bottom, in front there is normally a latch or seat belt buckle on top, and a cable/webbing from the lower bar on the window down to the door bar on the cage.

Without a cage, I think you would have a hard time mounting the net, unless you welded tabs to the door.

You may consider some Arm restraints, to serve some of the same function.

RE Instructors: Regardless of the skill they possess, some people are simply better at teaching at others. Two instructors, one has only driven track days, one is a F1 driver. The guy you as a student will get the most from is the one who is better teacher.

Tom
(who sucks at teaching)

[Jeff Alton]

Good point about teaching abilities. That goes for just about everything. Transferring skills and knowledge is a universal technique that not everyone is good at. The student also needs to be willing to learn, sometimes that is more important! It is one thing to say you want to learn, another to actually attempt to take in and put to use what you have been taught.

Jeff

[stuartj]

What I wonder about is ABS on the track. Especially on low grip surfaces- like grass.

Ive had the experience of travelling backwards, at high speed over a skidpan in a 996 with both my feet jammed on the brake pedal, wondering when the car was ever going to stop. The passenger and i were able to discuss the matter in some detail before the car finally came to rest.

Look at the photos of the C-GT crash, clearly this was a high speed off. The grass leading up to the point of impact on the wall shows no evidence of vehicle retardardation. Theres hardly even evidence of tyre tracks. We all know that driver, apparently an experienced guy, would have been trying to point that car away from the wall and wash off speed.

Perhaps that state of the art Porsche, didnt allow him to steer or slow on the grass at high speed?