The Corvettes dominate at Road America. The track you are on is pretty twisty by comparison so, to me, it would be hard to measure a disparity between the two cars there. That said, the 911, and especially the 930 variant, are considered to be true driver's cars by most while the same polling would suggest that anyone can get in a Vette and go fast. The Porsche in skiing terms is a double black diamond while the Corvette is a blue square. I've never driven a 930 or a Vette (but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express....) so I can't speak with authority on this. However, I do qualify under the 911 "mystique" that leave many wondering why we would drive cars that want to spin off the track.:) I agree with the broad assertion that 911s are driver's cars. In the right hands they are incredible. In the wrong hands.....well, you know the rest.

Long story short, in my unbiased (;)) opinion, you are the winner by virtue of superior car handling. Especially considering the age/technology difference the two cars. Nice work! Thanks for the Vid.

"Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

OK, reality check here. I'm the guy driving the Z06. And please do not take offense by any of this, just pointing out some facts as all sides need to be taken into account.

There are fantasies and realities. I am glad that the videos let you feel good about the Porsches and they should. The Porsche is a great car and Craig a great driver.

There is no question that it is a great testament that a car that old, with all the mods made to it and money put into it is able to still run as well as it does against a new car. It is truly amazing. Tells you that Porsche has had a great "platform" for along time.

We do this to have fun, not compete. PERIOD. Just because I stay close to Craig for the fun of it does not mean I have to, and Craig knows this. Watch the WHOLE video and you will see reality, as I disappear completely from sight if you watch both videos. I stay close on purpose because I love running with Craig as he is one of the only drivers out there I trust with my life to run so close. It makes it more fun, and yes Craig does make me work for it. He is a great driver in a great car.

1. There was no reliability issue. The Vette has been flawless since day one. Turns out the tech. overfilled the oil (Z06's are the only V8's checked HOT instead of cold) and the oil was blowing out of the filler tube and PVC valve and they let out the extra oil, and voila, no issue. So nothing went wrong with the car, just the tech. The oil was burning off the exhaust pipes.

2. The vidoes are all good and nice, but I will put up 100K to have us run together at the track when I am NOT staying close for the fun of driving together, as I enjoy the competiition. The 100K says that I lose the Porsche within the first 1/2 lap. Any takers?

3. Put any equal priced Vette against any new equal priced Porsche out there and I'll put 300K on me taking the Porsche in the first 1/2 lap again. Now, put me against a GT3..stock and I'll put up 300K which says I will I lose them within a lap.

Any takers?

I'm out there to have fun, and love driving with Craig, but to take these videos out of context and to NOT show the whole video, that I can disappear from sight within a lap at any time I want, and willing again to put up 100K to prove it.

Any takers?

Again, you guys have great cars and there is no question that the Porsche is fantastic. BUT the old "Corvette is great bang for the buck" is gone. The new Z06 is pure "Bang" period.

Have you guys read any of the reviews?

Look at every review done. Nurburing is as objective as it gets, except the fact that the Z06 sat second only to the $465,000.00 Carerra GT by only 10 seconds and did NOT take into account the fact the Vette was running Run Flats, which are a joke forced by marketing by Goodyear. Put on equal rubber, and the Z06 in only 3 laps beat every car out there. Period. And in 90 degree humid conditions.

Want a real fact? Half of all Corvette buyers in 2006 were previous Porsche owners. How do you explain this?

They did a great job with the Vette. It may not last like a Porsche, but it does its job well..it is fast, handles great and is a blast to drive. A cost analysis done on the Corvette showed that if you take into account that you can purchase 2 Vettes for every Turbo Carerra means that you save money long term anyhow.

Read all the current reviews: Even Car and Driver who put it 3rd behind the Ferarri F430 and Turo Carrerra had to admit the truth:

Lap times: 1st place:. Z06 So if you're out for fun, the Z06 is killer. And we're talking apples to apples: 2006 to 2006 to 2006

Just a good idea to say "Hey, Porsche has a great product, but Chevrolet did their homework on this one, and got it right".

And sure, if anyone wants the DVD I would be happy to mail it to them at no charge. I would like to get Craig's video so I can combine them both so you can see the whole thing...from front and rear with NO editing at all. The only way to show it without bias.

Bottom line: Porsche makes a great car, and now, finally, so does Chevrolet. Any takers? PLEASE. I need the money!

Just kidding. I'll do it without the money. Just for fun.

I have to admit, I love being the underdog. It DOES make me feel good driving an American Car that at 70K takes pretty much everything under $250K without much work.

And yes, I did take 1st or 2nd in every race this past season at the ICSCC races (in an 89 BMW..liked running in class with lots of cars), but Craig is as good a driver as I am.

Bottom line is we both have great cars period. And are both great dirvers period.

-David
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160867198.jpg

valve on center pipes on Z06
 

Valve on tailpipe of Z06: Purely to meet noise standards in Europe. The two center pipers are closed, and vacuum actuated so they open to "straight pipes" over 3000 RPM. It is so clever, as it makes the car very quet when you want to cruise on the highway, and very loud when you push it.

-David

Straight line vs. cornering
 

If the Vette handles better in a straight line, why did he beat the Turbo Carerra and F430 on a road course in lap times in the latest Car and Driver?

That is a very old image of the Corvette. Do you not know what the Z06 did on the Nurburing? It is posted everywhere. No reason to deny reality. The Z06 outhandles AND has straight line acceleration now.

Got to give those guys at Chevy credit, as they finally got it right.

-David

Hey David, as the P.O. of Craig's car, I agree with everything you said. I'll take your bet, if you're willing to run with me in my current car..... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads9/91160868119.jpg

(I called David's attention to this post)

David makes some very good points - chief amongst them for me is the high speed corner entry composure of the Corvette are amazing - as is the GT3. It is evident that both are inherently more stable under both situations than the ol' 930.

I have some issues with the brakes as they currently feel/and especially as they change throughout the course of a lap - the rotors are installed backwards and the pedal feel varies greatly from lap to lap. They just get too damn hot. As David could tell "You don't have confidence in your brakes, do you?"

As far as acceleration: Both are pretty equal, but the 'Vette does pull away at higher speeds - above 100 or so. I suspect that they will be more equal once the 930 engine is 'tuned' - presently I am down 25 lb ft of tq and about 25 hp from ideal - my AFRs are about 10:1. Way too rich. And the 'Vete's coeficient of drag is probably in the low .30s - the 930 is above .42.

Now......just for fun.....and not to bust your nuts David - I'll bet if the previous owner were to compete with David that I'd put my money on Randy. He's a heck of a driver, better than both David and I.

It takes awhile to get good in a 930. I don't think there is much doubt that the learning curve is steeper and longer in a 930 vs. a Z06.

That was a fun day. I need more practice, a correct/more comfortable/firmer brake setup, and perhaps a more modern chassis. But the ol' 930 did ok.

Currently, David is amongst the fastest car/driver combos at the local DEs.......great to run with!

Although it's fun to see Porsche boosters talking a little trash, the real reality check for this thread is that a track day competition like this is really only a comparison of two drivers, not two cars. Unless you want us to believe that Craig and David are somehow perfectly matched, then this is all just fun talk and cool-looking videos.

I've driven with a lot of Z06's, old and new, and no one's passed me yet. I guess I could take that to mean that I'm driving some kind of super car and I'm all ready to take David's money -- but in reality it doesn't prove anything at all about my 911 or the Z06's I've driven with. Maybe quarter-mile runs separate cars, but amateur track days generally just separate drivers.

If you want to see if one particular 911 or 930 is better than a stock C6 Z06, you'd have to find a pro driver who's comfortable in both machines and let him run the laps.

Mid 70's vettes were crap when they were new. <72 and >82 were better, but everything in between was yuck.

I'd love to see the full videos or at least more than we saw.

Yes, the new 7L Z06 is a pretty amazing car. No if's, and's, or but's.

pro driver for true comparison
 

Agree completely, which is why I reference real data done by pro drivers, and the Z06 comes out on top in all the published data that is as unbiased as possible. Anything under $450,000.00 on a road course.

Not sure what you're driving..which 911, but to me track days are for fun. Would love to meet you out at Pacific Raceways just for the fun of it. I wouldn't take your money regardless if I won or not, as I was just making the same point you are. What was presented was unfair and extremely biased "talk".

What car do you drive....I can tell from my videos if we've been on the track together. I have the yellow Z06.

Racing is one thing, but track days are just for fun.

The point I was trying to make was to take a fun track day and to interpret one section of the video after the fact as some actual "real" objective comparision test (as you are actual stating) is silly. We were just playing around.


Let me know next day you will be out there.

-David

Craig's Brakes
 

Yes, I am DYING to get Craig to fix those damn brakes on his car. I can FEEL his pain as he slows down going into 1 / 2 out of pure fear, and it would be a much better comparision to run against it with brakes that don't scare the crap out of him. I do not know how he has the guts to drive as fast as he does with brakes he does not trust, but he definitely know precisely the limit and goes right to it and cuts out. Smart man.

I've been driving for one year and two months now. I have a feeling that running against Randy in his Viper may be a problem, and from what I hear running against Randy in ANYTHING might be a problem!

-David

Re: pro driver for true comparison
 

Randy, I think I'll pass on running against you in ANY car!

-David

I'm just having fun too.

FWIW, I did get a chance to drive Chuck Mill's Z06 at PR this summer for a few laps, and I have to say that the performance of the car in 100% showroom stock form was absolutely stunning, nearly to the point of being absurd.

But this is a Porsche forum, and I can say that I do miss the turbo, there is just something about the lines, the quirky handling, and the reward of working good lap times in a chassis that has a reputation for being unforgiving.

Glad you guys had fun.

Yes, and as I said
 

Even with his brake problems, Craig is one of the only drivers I would trust to run so close too. He is fast, predictable and "translates" to me what he is going to do and has the kind of "driver instincts" I love to drive with.

Which is why we both went out that day in the first place.

Both pretty equal drivers. Yes, and the Z06 walks away from most cars in its class over 100 MPH. It was the biggest shock in the latest car and driver test:

I notice it all the time. Cars running close, and above 120, I lose them.

The numbers, as I am "data" driven:

Car and Driver Sept 06: 2006 CARS

0-150 MPH
Z06: 17.7s
F430: 23.8s
911 Turbo: 19.1s

LAP TIMES
Z06 - 1:15.5
F430-1:18:20
911 T- 1:17:55

There goes the "Corvette is good at straight line" concept! It is good at both now. That is the coolest, most enjoyable thing about driving it vs. previous Vette's, although the last gen was not bad either.


Could not figure out why I was losing everyone til' I saw the numbers. The Z06 just takes off over 100. That appears to be one of the reasons it does so well as far as lap times.

-David

Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

You must be very proud that your new Vette will dust a 30 year old P-car.;)

Just kidding! (.......sort of.....)

When I read the title to this thread my money went on the Vette. Like I said, they dominate at Road America which favors speed over handling (Yes-Vettes handle great. I'm just saying). There isn't a street car of Craigs vintage that can stick with the new Vettes in my experience. But again-you're comparing brand new to vintage. As you've stated, I'm sure it's all in good fun, but it's not a realistic match up. Also, we don't have P-cars quite like Jack O's here in Wisconsin to my knowledge. That's a whole different ballgame-one where all bets are off as far as I'm concerned. I would love to see that race.

BUT-If I had 100k to bet, I would take your bet against a few guys I know that run new GT3s pretty damn fast-faster than most, if not all Z06s that run at R/A. At that level, with those cars, it boils down to the driver.

You've got a GREAT car. I like it a lot. Count me as a Porsche owner who is seriously considering a new Z06. I will not sell my old 911 because it has always been my dream car. If I do get a Z06, I'll pick on someone my own size.;)

Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

You forget something VERY important: I am not the one that did the picking on...so no need to point your finger at me. Did you see me start this post with claims about how I beat a Porsche? Just telling the truth: By the way here is my lap time in June with the car totally stock in traffic. May help...Unfortunately the damn gps device has been broken for months and am out there to have fun, so have not had it fixed yet.. Check the ICSCC race lap times so you can see that a 1:34 is pretty damn good for a guy with 1 year experience in a stock car with run flats in a car of any type. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160873805.jpg

Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

Hello and welcome :)

It was my 'Exactly' that you quoted so I'd like to quickly reply with an explanation....

I am truly glad that your cars issue at the track turned out to be human rather than mechanical error. I am also just as happy as you (and many others) that a US automaker finally makes a world class sport scar. I even like the way it looks... Well, mostly ;)

With that said, it is hard to deny that Chevy does not have a good track record when it comes to quality and durability of it's products. By quality I do not mean performance. Rather; fit and finish and out of the box reliability. By durability I mean long term reliability. Sure, they (and other manufacturers) have come a looong way. But they are still ranked so low by objective sources as to be a 'poor' choice for new or used automobile shoppers. Again: Much better than in the past, but compared to other manufacturers, near the bottom... The Vette in particular for Chevy (see Consumer Reports long term ownership reports).

Does this make the Vette a bad car? Not in my book. But is it a car I would spend my 70k new, or 20, 30, 40k used on? No.

I certainly appreciate the Vette for what it is: A Super performer on par with the best. For me, ownership goes far beyond performance numbers. Reliability and long term durability have to factor in as well.

Thanks.

Eric

O.K. I'll admit it, I've been past by a Z06 on the track, and it was a C5. My car is similar to BB1 and Craig's old car. There was no way I could keep up with that Z06. Better brakes, more tire, more power, easier to drive and A.C........

I LIKE the new Z06.

Tinker

Re: Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

I didn't mean it to come off that way at all. I thought I made it clear I have a great respect for the Vettes and their drivers. No offense meant. Any finger pointing was done in jest. You guys are friends and it was a fun day. Good for you both!

My only point, and not necessarily directed at you, is that it's not really a fair match up. I would have been VERY surprised if a new Vette didn't beat an older 911. Apples to oranges.

If I were to point a finger, it would be that your blanket statement that you can drop any GT3 driver on the planet (it's inferred) is a bit arrogant. No problem. Arrogance is a necessary part of the racer's makeup. However, that arrogance is always met with humility when a better driver drops you within a lap.

SmileWavy

Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

By the way, that is precisely why I put up the data on the new Z05 vs. the new F430 vs. the new Turbo Carerra.

What I neglected: 70k vs. 192k vs 130k in cost.

I am not disputing that it is amazing that Craig can get that wonderful car to dance like it does....it is as much a testament to him as a driver as well as the car. It is amazing how well it runs against a 2006 Z06. No question about it.

But what you're really saying based purely on numbers is that that old Porsche is as good as a new Porsche more than anything whether you realize it or not.

Considering the lap times of the NEW Z06 vs. NEW Turbo Carerra:

If he can really keep up with me in it, and the new Turbo Carerra can't, you're saying that his car is better than a new Turbo Carerra NOT a Z06. This is the REAL comparision being made although it is not obvious.

Simple: If a=b, and b=c, a=c right?


Sorry, spend too much time in court.

-David

All that I've learned from this thread is I've spent enough money on my old 911 to possibly afford (or come close to affording) a Corvette, maybe even a Z06. :(

It is obvious what my opinion of 911s are, Turbos as well. But the Z06 is undeniably a substantial achievement. Maybe one can call it an American Ferrari or American Porsche, but hands down, they're really quite brilliant cars.

As to the competition - I don't know. I would think both cars are evenly matched. The Turbo might do some things better than the Z06 and vice-versa. Am I surprised about the results? Yes and no. The 911 platform is incredibly strong, but honestly, as 911s are more or less race cars built for the street, it should be close when modifications are factored in.

Putting it another way, I would expect a 1960s F1 car with headlights and bumpers on it to do as well as the Z06, or maybe even beat it.

What is truly exciting is the Z06 did not have a mechanical breakdown. That says something right there.