Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

Your point is well taken. I recently read an long term review on a Cadillac with 60K miles on it and it rattled like crazy. Your point is not only well taken, but the absolute truth. Am I concerned about long term reliability? No. Why? Breaking 160 on this track is not so easy to do, and the Z06 makes me feel like if I died tomorrow, it would be fine.

BUT it is all about priorities. If I were to purchase for the long haul, I would definitely consider a Porsche a better bet.

Although one thing you missed in Consumer Reports, and it is important as it tells you that the story is more complex:

Page 8, April 2006

"Which cars would owners buy again"

#1 Chevrolet Corvette with 93%

#9 Porsche 911 Carerra with 83%

So, the story is more complex than it appears.

Car ownership is not just about reliability or performance obviously. It is a mix of these various qualities, and ones which are not easily defined. And sure, there are diehard Corvette fanatics but you would expect the same numbers from Porsche but they just aren't there.

Again, half of all Corvette sales in 2006 were to previous Porsche Owners.

I believe that taking a guy from Cadillac and letting him run the show made a big difference. Will my car be a collectors item like your Porsche? I doubt it.

But it is important to you, and not to me. We just have different viewpoints on it. I am into what the car can do for me today. You are looking long term. I just don't think that way. That's why we all live in America!

-David

Porsches offered by the dealerships today are much different than those offered 20 to 30 years ago. With exception to the GT-3, I wouldn't touch a new Porsche for the money Porsche is charging, particularly in lieu of the Z06.

The new 997s don't even behave like older 911s.

The Cayman S or Boxster are more the Porsches to own, IMO.

Re: Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

I hope some of that time was spent listening to the opposition-unlike here. I don't think you've read anything I've said. Or maybe I haven't been clear. I'll try to be more direct-

An old Turbo will not keep up with a new Vette all things being equal. It's a miss match.

An old turbo will not keep up with a new GT3-all things being equal.

The new Vettes are world class, stellar performers.

So are the new GT3s.

There's always a better driver than you.

Depending on who's driving, the Vette OR the GT3 will cross the finish line first.

Given the choice, spending my money, I'll take the Z06.

Given the choice, you're buying, I'll take the GT3. I'm a Porsche guy after all. :)

I finish by saying again- No offense was meant by any of my comments. I love your car. I may buy one myself. MANY people rave about them at events I've attended. They are consistently the fastest group of cars on the track with a few exceptions. That said, A great driver in a bus will drop a poor driver in a Vette. Maybe an exaggeration but you get my drift.

Ah, the internet....... ;)

Above all, it was a fun day. That is all David and I were out for.
Plus, the entertainment value of "Old Porsche vs. new Corvette" on a Porsche forum......priceless. My initial note to David at noon today:
"Excuse the 'Porsche pride' evident on the post ;-)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/309033-930-turbo-my-930-vs-c6-z06-track-today-post2868454.html#post2868454"

Had fun about a year ago when Randy caught up and passed me in he and his wife's former 1973 3.6 Varioram. Here to tell you - that was good driving. We ran in pretty tight quarters - nose to tail before he adiosed. Granted, my car was down on power a bit, but the P/W ratio and tire size dictated that I should have pulled away - I believe Randy was several seconds a lap quicker in the Turbo.

David is a naturally gifted driver with real talent.
Nice to have a friend on track who can pull you to a higher level.

I think we should chill and take this whole post for what it is: fun.
Not an objective test by any means....

Re: Re: Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

Bob, I stand corrected. It is completely wrong to make such statements and I was being a bit "emotional" in making mine. The driver/car combo is what is important. I was just reacting because I was on the track slowing down on purpose to stay with Craig so we could have the fun of going through the turns together, and it turns into a situation where my NOT going full bore and dusting him leads to this completely biased "comparison" which is just silly. Not just silly because it is false, but also because we are comparing cars which are so different in age.

What I would prefer to do is to again, show the WHOLE video when I felt we had had enough fun, and then just disappeared. That tells the real story. It is not Craig, he is a great driver. I just have a faster car, and why shouldn't it be. It is a 2006 Z06. It is SUPPOSED to be fast.

Yes, it was arrogant and I retract my statement. I love driving with anyone who drives fast. Craig is amazing. If he were in a Z06 I think THEN we would have a fair comparison drive.

-David

Exactly what David was doing. Well put.

If I develop more confidence in the brakes, have more seat time, fresher tires, a tuned engine post rebuild - plus NOT have 5 months between track days (I last ran early May) -- then David wouldn't have to hang back as much to play. Ah, ***** excuses...:p

For me, it is all bout the friendly competition, and David is a nice guy, a low-key non-braggart who drives like a bat outta hell. Kinda like Randy.

Re: Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

HOPES THIS HELP those who are considering purchasing older cars. I run at pretty much every track day, and have raced ICSCC this year and I have to tell you that I have made lots of great friends.

What I hear CONSTANTLY from those who purchased 30K cars and worked on them to get them up to the performance level they wanted is the following:

1. They spent MORE money on their cars than my Z06.
2. They can't quite match the performance of it, as it was so well "integrated" by GM.
3. They lack the reliability as putting together a bunch of parts that were not neceesarily meant to work together can by nature drop the reliability of the finished product.

I've had at least 5 people admit to have spent, when all is said and done over $80 plus on a car they originally thought was going to cost them around $45k which is what the Z06 cost.

So consider all the unknowns when you go for the rebuild of an older car. If you're like Craig, tenacious and passionate about it, it makes sense. If you're like me and do not plan to change tire pressures myself, consider a new car.

Re: Re: Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

Bob, again I am sorry for miscommunicating. I did understand what you meant and appreciate your very objective comments. Put it this way: At an ICSCC event this year, I smoked a new Z06 in an 89 BMW 325 with 180 HP. That tells you something. It is always a combo of driver and car, and there is no way around that.

Again, this whole post started by taking a fun, absolutely non-competitive day at the track and using it as an attempt to state that one car could compete with another car.

They are both great cars in their own right, but this competition involved one person competing with the purpose of posting the results, and the other not even aware that there WAS a competition. Would you drive the same knowing that you were going to be used in this manner? All you have to do is watch the part of the video where I obviously had had enough, and disappeared off into the distance. All on video.

Again, your comments are understood and appreciated, and I do not mean to be arrogant. Just was a bit thrown off by our fun day of driving turned into a supposed unbiased comparison.

-David

BOXSTER AND CAYMAN S
 

AMEN! The Cayman X and Boxster are the most fun cars to drive, and are the future purely from an engineering standpoint! Could not agree more.

-David

Uh oh. I should not have called it a 'friendly competition' per a few posts ago. Because it wasn't

My original starting post:
"Will be interesting to see how the 930 does vs. a friends' very well driven C6 Z06 (505hp) with Hoosiers. I'll post my impressions later tonight after the track day this afternoon."
IMPRESSIONS.

The one thing that p!sses me off about Pelican/Internet boards is that things turn out contentious......on a regular basis. Gets tiresome.

Supposed to be fun, it was, nothing more.
To me, it was interesting to drive with a Z06, and have fun by drawing some comparisons, or rather IMPRESSIONS - NOT conclusions. I didn't draw ANY conclusions. Not a one.

Additionally, in fairness one needs to go back and read my posts - I was pretty damn fair.

So David if you are pissed at me - it seems you might be - then I am sorry. But just be fair & equitable.

Thanks Craig..
 

Thanks Craig. That is all I needed to hear. We had a blast that day, but if I knew you wanted to see how your car would run against mine competitively, all you had to do was say so. As you know, we took turns swapping places on purpose, and stuck close to each other on purpose. I know you mentioned that you appreciated me slowing down so we could stick together due to your brake issues, and I was doing so for the fun of running together close as that you are one of the only guys experienced enough to do that.

I stayed close because I knew how cool of a video it would make, not because I could not pass you. You and I both in the same exact car would be a fun competition indeed! And yes, it is amazing how fast you can run with a car that old, but more than anything I appreciate your comments..that this was not an objective test at all, as it wasn't.

I know you are very proud of your car, as it has been a major achievement of yours. I would totally be into a real comparison if you want to do so at the next event. Just let me know. I will mount two cameras...one facing front, the other rear so we have video from both persectives at one point.

It is not a race if one party does not know that we are racing, so next time let me know ok?

I take all of this lightly, and know what a great guy you are and always will look forward to seeing you at the track. I can't blame you one bit for being proud of how well you ran against me in a Z06...the one getting so much attention for it's design.

-David

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160880066.jpg

Hey Randy
 

Randy, glad you got a chance to drive a new Z06, as they are quite the "out of the box car". The only thing wrong with Chuck's may have been tire pressures, but I'm sure you either was aware of it took it into account. Most people are running them too high (Chuck used to) and it is not as sticky with them like that.

You have a great reputation, and would be fun someday to follow you around the track. My favorite way to learn.

-David

To wrap this up: Still, I wouldn't call what we did on Wednesday a competition. That would involve a heads-up awareness of that situation for both parties.

At all times I was aware of what you were doing - when you got on it, it was obvious what your car/you could do. Amazing stuff.

I did factor in the things I've already mentioned - the old tires, the driver (me, no track days for 5 months), the lack of tuning, and the awesome high speed capabilities of your car - and posted my impressions with those in mind. A well setup 930 with a decent driver is a competitive machine - and so is a Z06. I wanted some sort of benchmark to draw impressions from. Sure found one!

When I improve - and make some car changes - then I might take ya up on your offer. We'll have to find a venue that will allow it - potential black flags and a bad rep at a DE is no fun.....

Did someone say Craig needs to get his racing license?;)

No, not pissed..
 

Not pissed at all: The spirit of the day was to stick close together to get some great up close video. I just was taken back by the impressions which were made with me with the goal of staying CLOSE to you on purpose is all. I mean if you truly wanted to see how well it ran against me full on, I would have done that also without problem.

Remember our agreement before going out: "David will not push Craig in any manner at all, because Craig has not driven for along time and safety was our first concern".

The spirit and intent of the day was to have fun, not do comparisions. The only comparison that we could honestly do is how close we could stick together without hitting each other, because that was my focus (obviously..look at the video)...and you were very interested in hearing what your car sounded like as I could hear it so well.

That is all. No big deal Craig. We are guys and friends. Guys do not get pissed. You made some very fair statements and again, it is amazing what you can do in that car.

Next time, let's run full bore and see what happens. The brake problem is NOT an excuse by the way, but a REAL problem which I wish you would take care of. It scares me to see you get nervous not knowing how they are going to react.

Truly, no big deal Craig.

Let's swap real videos though. I will make a copy of mine onto miniDV tape so you can have the original. You can't work with the DVD version as it is tough to manipulate.

Thanks though for apologizing, but no need!

-David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

No apology necessary.:) I just wanted to be clear. My statements in the first post, btw where meant to give Craig a thumbs up for some nice driving, not ride the Vette driver (you)down. Also, my impression is that Craig wasn't really playing it off as a head to head competition so much as a comparison. I gathered his, and your, bottom line was to go out and have fun and report the results of a great track day-as it should be. He did, after all, draw your attention to this thread. As Craig opined, the internet message boards can put a bad twist on innocent statements. Don't let this goofyness affect future outings with Craig. That would be a real shame!

PS- I am wondering where one can score a Z06 for $45k? Or did I misread and you meant the $80k figure? I've been cyber-shopping and they seem to run high 60s to low 70s.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Vette lost horribly in reliability dept."
 

No, Craig and I are good friends. No issues at all. No, no Z06 for 45K. Your figures are accurate. The only thing I have heard of is that so many have crashed in the first couple of months due to ridiculous torque, that there are many damaged ones for sale for pretty low prices. All seem to occur in parking lots...low speed crashes where the rear end spins out.

Wait awhile. I don't know though, they seem to be holding their prices pretty well, and GM raised the price for 2007 by $4300.00 as demand has been high.

Good luck, and no worries about Craig. He is one of the only drivers out there that make driving fun, and is one of those guys you know you can rely on completely on the track, so there is no issue I have with him at all.

Just want all of you to be out there to watch is all!

-David

Cool! A real friend.
When is your next track day?

Re: Yes, and as I said
 

It kills me when they throw the 997 Turbo into the ring against cars like the F430 and Z06.

I don't think there is a Porsche owner here who considers the 997 Turbo the "ultimate performance" Porsche today (on par with the Z06). Maybe Mr. General Public does, and that is why the rags used it for the test.

I personally consider it a Touring GT more than anything else - it weighs damn near 3550 pounds with all the standard luxury equipment, AWD, and available slushbox (check out the weights in that same article).

The late-model Porsches to compare with the Z06 on the track would be the 997 generation GT3, GT3-RS, and upcoming GT2. Those are track Porsches.

Of course, you can argue their sticker price (of which the Z06 is a steal)... and then compare the actual build numbers. I swear I see a Z06 every day around here!

I've driven the Z06 (on the street) and I was impressed. It's hard not to be in a car that weighs just over 3100 pounds with 470 lb-ft of torque!

(edited)

Re: pro driver for true comparison
 

David, you asked Jack Olsen what car he drives. It's a '72 911 with a mid 90's 250hp 3.6L. You can see it here
http://www.opentrackchallenge.com/
a write up about their drive here
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/159928-otc-2004-recap-olsen-schmidt.html?highlight=bbii
and info about the car here
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102032&highlight=bb+bui ld+up