Taking on the Porsche engineers.

[island911]

Certainly there are components on our 911s that can use improvement. There are even some threads on that topic. However, when it comes to the important stuff (engine, transmission, suspension, brakes, configuration) Porsche, the men, the engineers, have really done it right.

So here we are, a tech board, with mostly 20-something y/o cars, looking for improvement.

We should be lucky. We have after-market designers who have the benefit of time, the benefit of computers, the benefit of existing Porsche design, the benefit of quick access to technical information. . . and what do we have to show for it?

We have CRAP!

We have Vertex Aluminum POS fan housings.

We have WEVO splaying springplates.

We have numerous variations of Squeal like a pig suspension bushings.

I know, I know . .. "but they try." Well, so did the designers of the Vega and the Pinto! (to their credit, those cars were shiney when new.)

So, a word to the wise: If you are going to to 'take on' the Porsche engineers of slide-rule days, be prepared to do some serious research and testing.

Or, be prepared to be thouroughly embarrassed.

That is, "new" and "shiney" are not engineering improvements - YMMV

[don911]

Always have to "stimulate" conversation don't ya. I'll reluctantly bite since my street is a sheet of ice and I can't go for a nice drive and put to use all the improvements I've made.

I've changed about every piece on my suspension and it has made huge improvements over stock in my opinion. Understanding that my purpose is to try to improve the car for track use. For street purposes, I wouldn't change anything except the wheel size and eliminate the sunroof.
I haven't strayed much from porsche components or suspension design however so I feel I've made good choices. I'm sure you may not agree.

For the elephant polybronze solution, you know from our past conversations that I feel they are not ideal but the best solution currently available. I've had mine on for a while now and have had zero squeaks. They eliminated my front end squeak entirely. Before you tell me to check the hood, I can tell you the rubber on my front control arms was deformed and the front/top of the tbar was rubbing and was the source of the squeak. These were larger tbars and the squeak may not be a problem with stock tbar size.
The rear, well, I do not like a design that shims slop into the system so they don't bind but if the rubber has given up, what alternative is there?
The porsche design allows for an easy assembly line installation and is pretty much bulletproof and maintenance free for 10+ years.
I know going in that the elephant bushing require maintenance and will most likely allow dirt to get on the bearing surface and bronze works well for rotational application and may not be the best choice for this application. The jury is still out on wheather this is a 10+ year solution or a 2-5 year. Only time will tell but I understand that and accept that my goal to improve track performance may add items to the car that may not hold up to 10+ years of use.

As far as the spring plate design, I've grown fond of those two rather large bolts that hold my adjustable spring plate together.

I think it comes down to what you're trying to achieve with the car. I feel my car is 100% better than when if was stock. It weighs hundreds of pounds less, has a few more hp, stops better and doesn't roll over in the corners. It also sits lower, rides rougher and has a lot of interior noise. It's now almost a perfect sports car...for me.

[Jack Olsen]

Rather than take the none-too-subtle bait, it might be more fun to hear from you, as an engineer, about what you would do to improve any of the 911's various components.

I think we can't help but treat the 911 like a favored child. Its vices tend to get minimized because of its many notable strengths. And yet, those original genius engineers have been able to watch their cars cope with: head studs that snap or stretch, oil coming out of many locations (with the heat exchanger boxes for cabin ventilation located directly underneath them), headlights that pop off, AC that breathes tepid air, chain tensioners that fail, synchros and valve guides that wear prematurely, oil lines just waiting to serve as a jacking point, aluminum-on-aluminum thread fusing on the external thermostat, acid-filled batteries sitting unprotected right on top of the unibody, plastic door handles that snap in two, needlessly optimistic speedometers, leaky Targa tops, numerous unfused electrical circuits, a fan belt that needs shims to maintain tension, a gas tank filler that sometimes requires the nozzle to be inverted in order to work, and a cruise control that fails high rather than low. (This list was culled from this thread that I started six years ago.)

The 911 was and is an engineer's wet dream -- a single project allowing 40+ years for re-evaluation and refinement. But it was also produced by a very small company that never had particularly deep pockets, and sometimes had to make compromises when money was tight.

I'd be interested in where you think there were missed opportunities or areas for improvement in the models and components over the years.

[Shuie]

We do have BF Torino seats

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I agree with Glenn in spirit, though certainly not about ER polybronze. My experience with Chuck's products has been bulletproof with enough time and miles to earn any seal of approval.

But with computer, manufacturing and materials advances over the last 20 years, we should have better aftermarket parts versus a lot of stuff that looks like MotorMeister thought it up or made it.

Glenn, is there anything out there that does meet your approval?

What parts would you make? Make differently? How? It's easy to carp about crap, so what would your world look like?

[unclebilly]

The advantage that the Porsche engineers have over some of the aftermarket guys is that they are engineers.

I'm not saying that you have to be an engineer to design anything good, what I am saying is that an engineer can easily optimize something designed by someone else because they have the tools (knowhow) to predict how strong things need to be, rather than just over / under building everything and hoping for the best.

And by the way, engineers do overlook things from time to time and some things designed by engineers are just really bad but often egos get in the way of making improvements. I suspect that this was the root of many of the issues with our cars. We've all seen the quotes by various members of the Porsche family along the lines of, how smart is a water cooled car with the engine in the back and we're a sports car company so why would we build a 4 door?

[Shuie]

I don't disagree that its hard to better what the original Porsche engineers and manufacturing processes gave us to start with, but kudos to the aftermarket for giving me an oil circuit, new seats, a nice steering wheel, and replacement suspension parts for my 35yr old car. Replacement parts availability (or lack there of) is one of the things I dread about owning any old or classic car going forward. The Porsche engineers are not exactly making parts for our cars these days.

[Jay Auskin]

Regarding the fan housing, what does "engineering" have to do with a bad casting?

[island911]

As to be expected, some of you would rather miss the point.

Shaun- Again, the examples of what's out there that does meet my approval are:

--Porsche magnesium fan housing. It's incredibly light weight, and very precision, considering the tolerance stack-up.(I had it off for digitizing the other day -- made note of the sublties.) It's 2007 and Vertex couldn't even scape together enough technology to make a direct copy. and Aluminum?

--Porsche OE spring plates. (vs a set-screw positioned on a flat slanted surface!? --are you kidding me?)

--Porsche OE rubber A-arm bushings. (vs lathed to fit and lube poly-whatchamacallit. )

to add:
--Porsche Fuchs forged wheels. (vs chucky brittle cast faux17's)

-- SSi's They took the existing Porsche design and applied more expensive materials. That's not exactly re-engineering anything much; but at least the didn't screw it up like Vertex did. SSi has a top notch product.

...the list is fairly long. But the point is it's not(apparently) easy to better those Porsche engineers from days past. To better those designs one generally has to look to interiour pieces (rookie engineers working w/ demanding Industrial designers, no doubt.) Or, one has to redefine the goal (ie "devoted track car")

oh, btw Jack/Shaun, I got the none-too-subtle inference that I should NOT point to the mediocre replacements components. UNLESS I can say, as an engineer, what I would do to improve these 911's various components.

What you (and Shaun) didn't get is that this engineer thinks that those components don't need "improvement." --at least not the "improvements" we've been given.

Originally posted by livi
Every medical intervention has a price. There is literary no such thing as a 'free lunch' with medicine. With every action, the expected positive effect has to be weighted against possible adverse effects.

The greater the need for and possible benefit with a certain action or medication - the bigger the risks of adverse effects is 'allowed'.

Or something like that.. typical subject where I get frustrated over my English.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by island911


oh, btw Jack/Shaun, I got the none-too-subtle inference that I should NOT point to the mediocre replacements components. UNLESS I can say, as an engineer, what I would do to improve these 911's various components.

What you (and Shaun) didn't get is that this engineer thinks that those components don't need "improvement." --at least not the "improvements" we've been given.

Maybe it was in this part:

Originally posted by island911

We should be lucky. We have after-market designers who have the benefit of time, the benefit of computers, the benefit of existing Porsche design, the benefit of quick access to technical information. . . and what do we have to show for it?

You could have said " some after-market engineers."

Hey, since when have you joined the Milt Club of rubbing people the wrong way? Work getting to you? I know I'm quite a bit more terse and moody this time of year, every year. Keep thinking about those nice parts and make some more of your nice parts (feeler gauges)!!

[Wrecked944]

What about Nickies?

[Brother]

Nickies is a good example of a great aftermarket product, but

What about aftermarket engine development?

Besides what charles has done, there isn't as much done to a 911 motor compared to a VW Type 4 or others.

[Grady Clay]

I will take both sides of what island911 says

Porsche engineers, over the years have been great IMHO. We have some wonderful cars. Yes, there have been some bone-head engineering that doesn’t even pass the “laugh test.”

The aftermarket has regularly stepped in and provided products for our cars. It hasn’t been perfect either, there have been many lame products. On the other hand, many useful products came to market that Porsche couldn’t produce. Time, US law and other make a difference.

Sure, there are some lame aftermarket products. The good news is the market weeds out the bad ones. It is even better with the speed of the internet. It used to be just us talking on the phone. “Us” were a pretty significant force. Today forums like Pelican are that force. A poorly engineered product can’t survive in the market. That includes Porsche A.G.


I spent a lot of time with Porsche engineers in the ’70s & ‘80s. The focus was always on how to make the product better and correct any issue.

I am concerned with today’s corporate issue. Since I retired in the late ‘80s, I don’t see the connection between the customers and engineers. There are levels of “corporation” interference. Why aren’t the engineers designing the successors to the 997 out visiting Pelican and PCA tech sessions? Is it now just marketing?

Our aftermarket suppliers are doing that contact.

A small company like PAG could suddenly find itself in the situation where its customers look elsewhere. I hope not, but that can happen in a flash. I think it is up to us to help guide the way if they listen. You can lead a horse to water ….

Best,
Grady

(Jack, Good post.)

[island911]

Originally posted by Brother
What about aftermarket engine development?

Besides what charles has done, there isn't as much done to a 911 motor compared to a VW Type 4 or others.

Why that's easy; the K&N filter and the e-Ram. - a couple more discouraging products.

Seriously. good point. The old VW motors have always enjoyed big bang for the engine buck.

Originally posted by milt
Hey, since when have you joined the Milt Club of rubbing people the wrong way? ...

LOL You know, it's not easy.

I figure that with tabs making some orderly, logical, and aesthetically acceptable posts over in OT, that I had better act quikly to provide balance to the Pelican universe.

I was actually expecting more posts like Noahs would develop. Because, yeah, as an engineer, I'm embarassed for some of the 911 products out there, not being even as good as what they are to replace. (IMO)

As for the VT's, they have a way of being a time suck for me. Reworking parts really gets me grumpy. Maybe my standards are too high.

[Facey]

i agree there have been many shotty aftermarket attempts, i don't really think that chuck's products are included in that....

and wevo has made a real improvement with it shift mechanism, coupler, and the shifter itself.

PMO has made (this is rumour not 100%) an improvement (vs. webers).

it nows seems that efi has steped up as a realistic replacement for CIS (tbitz, MSI, MSII)

[livi]

Originally posted by Mark Wilson

Hey, look at that ! I am being quoted !

I suppose the "no free lunch" concept applies to most things in life.

I can not contribute to this thread, but I must say I have never had the pleasure of working on such an old car where parts seem to fit so well together.

The simple fact that even a tech ignorant like me is able to perform both engine services and other maintenance and upgrades, is IMO proof that the original engineering was outstanding. Oh, and that Pelican is Porsche University no 1 !

Originally posted by livi
Hey, look at that ! I am being quoted !

Marcus - what you said makes a lot of sense whether car or human body. Most "improvements" I attempted to one of my 911's, caused an out of balance condition somewhere else in the car.

[livi]

No pain, no gain..

[Jk369]

I think a point has been missed.... Porches are a niche market so performance parts are a niche within a niche. The companies that produce the parts are relatively small and are then limited. Market research, engineering time and tools, product testing, and advertising are all expensive.

As far as engineering decisions that were made there are a lot of things I would have done differently, the list from Jack Olsen is a good start, but it give the car 'jen ne se qua' . I in fact work with a product that was mostly designed by an older German engineer. To my amazement when taking my Pcar apart I found incredible parallels in the development thought process.