Targa Rear Window Removal -- Observations and Questions

[1982911SCTarga]

Fuch-n-ay! And woo-hoo!

Brian

[vizail]

Congrat's Brian Congrat's.........#&$@(_(

[snbush67]

Victory !!!! ...... congrats, I think you are deserving of some type of an Pelican award.

[1982911SCTarga]

Thanks, there's still lots of little things left to do, including threading the defroster harness through the body grommet, re-installing the rear deck panel, re-attaching the Targa bar cover, installing a new front seal on the Targa bar and cleaning everything up.

At least I can see the finish line now and most of the heavy lifting has been completed.

Brian

[Brian 162]

Brian, great job I'm about to start the same process on my SC coupe while it sits awaiting a new interior. The glass is already out. I saw the grey caulk. I have 2 questions.
1 Do I have to re-caulk the new seal?

2 Does the caulking prevent the window from leaking?

Brian

[1982911SCTarga]

Brian, I think the factory used the gray non-hardening butyl caulk (or it might have been a butyl strip) to ensure that the seal would never, ever possibly leak.

My install is "dry," in the sense that I only used the 3M Strip-Calk (butyl caulk) to cover the screws retaining the subtrim. My reasoning against doing it like the factory was that it potentially would be extremely messy. I also did a couple of trial fits prior to getting the seal/window installed -- not possible if you caulk the heck out of it like the factory.

I didn't use any butyl caulk on the front windshield and it hasn't leaked. Also, my car rarely gets driven in rain (with the exception of the annual trip to Hershey where will all know it rains buckets no matter what day the event is scheduled).

Good luck!

Brian

[Brian 162]

Brian, thanks for the advice. It looks like a nightmare to run that caulking inside the seal with the wires. I plan to do it this weekend.

Brian

[1982911SCTarga]

Brian, the caulk wouldn't go in the seal with the wires -- the wires (connecting point aside) travel along in their own protected flange.

[Brian 162]

Got it , thanks.

[William Miller]

Brian, I've been away and missed this whole thread. Great Job on what many don't have the patience for.

I had my car painted last year at HBL following being rear-ended.
The paint turned out pretty good, but the rear window install was screwed up.
The body shop manager was my neighbors brother, which is why I brought it there. He quit under not so good terms and I was left in the dust. To say the least I'm stuck.

The problem is that they somehow pushed the rear edge of the glass down too far. I installed a few windsheilds so I know the rope process.
All I can think is that they somehow pushed the glass past the welt on the body and it's stuck there. Sort of like when you get the lid of a can stuck below the edge and you have to pry it up with a knife.

I was wondering it you can help me with your new found knowledge?
By any chance did you keep what's left of your original rubber?
I think part of the problem may be with the way they routed (Or did not rout the defrost wires.)

By any chance are you a member of our local site www.dorkiphus.com?

[1982911SCTarga]

Hi, Bill, yes, I'm a member of dorkiphus.com. I mostly read there and probably have fewer than a dozen posts.

Sorry to hear about your experience with HBL -- that's a bummer that they let you down.

Can you post a pic of your situation with your Targa's rear window? It's really hard for me to see how the rear portion of the window could be installed too far down into the body opening area, unless:

-- The rear portion of the window has slipped out of its channel in the seal (this should be fairly noticeable); or

-- The rear-end damage changed the dimensions around the body's rear window pinch-weld area (the factory and the shop manuals call for a steel frame fixture that is used to check for this condition). Do you know if your car was put on a frame fixture as part of the bodywork?

Another thought is that if your window is down too much in the back it should also be correspondingly up too much in the front under your Targa bar cover. You might want to try to look under there or run your finger under there to find out if anything's amiss in the front portion.

Otherwise, if the body opening/window area is correct, and the window is down in the back but normal in the front, the window could be under some serious tension because of the misalignment. I would be real careful trying to do anything to pop or push it back out.

If everything is correct, it seems like it would be awfully difficult to get the window installed with the rear part too far in.

Brian

[William Miller]

As you can see below the dammage was pretty minor.
The lid hinges were not dammaged nor was the paint at the fron edge of the deck lid. I paid them to put it on the rack and they said everything was fine. The only metal replaced was the piece that holds the reflector panel. The light housings and mounting points were fine.

(Would you believe the insurance company considered this a total loss?)


The next picture is after the paint job and their atempts to install the glass. I think they tried 3 times before they called in an outside contractor. The first time they forgot the little metal trim pieces and rubber below. (It was left over in a box.)

This picture was taken at my home after I attempted to see if I could push the glass back up. From all the other cars I've seen it looks like my glass is pushed down about 3/8 - 1/2" too far.

I was using the plywood blocks as a fulcrum for a 2x4 about 4' long. The glass bent up a bit in the middle, but did not come up much at the rear edge.



I took the car to Wagonwerks in Alexandria and they said it was definately installed wrong and sid they would re-do it for $700.

The interesting thing about the dealer was that their subcontracted glass man argued that I bought the wrong seal.
I think I got it here at PP. The manager I knew ordered one thru Porsche and it turned out to be the exact same thing.

So I do have a extra seal if I need to cut the new one that is in there to get the glass out.

You can also see in the picture that the wires were not run thru the seal. I didn't watch them take it all apart so I don't know how its supposed to be correctly done. Do the wires go across the top of the glass near the targa bar or arround the back of the bottom edge?

Is it possible that if they are supposed to go arround the bottom edge that the wires actually take up some space preventing the glass from being pushed in too far? I think its alsop possible that they some how have the front edge of the glass pushed to far forward (under the targa bar outter cover where you can't see it)
This is what may have give the extra room for the glass to get past the welt.

On a final note, In the center of the rear edge of the seal you could actually see light thru tha gap between the seal and the rear cross over panel. The subcontractors solution was to caulk it with some black silicone.

Any info or pictures you might have would be a great help. I'd really like to understand how its supposed to go together. Like you, I have tons of patience and would eventually like to get this sorted out.

[1982911SCTarga]

Hi, Bill. The glass is out of its respective seal flange in the back, which allows it to droop. The chances of succesfully getting that back in with everything installed is slim and none.

Want some more bad news? See those waves in your trim? The installer whapped the crap out of it with a hammer. That trim should be nice and smooth with no ripples. You'll need new right and left trim parts (black not the anodized aluminum) and a center joiner. Get your thumbs ready for that job.

The wiring looks OK, just that your installer either didn't hook it up at all or didn't bother to tuck them into their respective flange.

Given that your window isn't really "installed," you might be able to lift it out with a couple of the suction-cuppy devices like I used (see my earlier pics). Stand in the middle of your car and lift the rear window with the suction-cup handles attached near the top. You'll still have to remove your Targa bar.

It's really sad to see that a so-called "pro" could get something so wrong.

Is Darnestown out on 270? I could come up and help you with on-site guidance, but this is a difficult task to complete in a day (at least for me). My schedule's hectic this weekend, but maybe next?

Brian

[William Miller]

Thanks, this is low on the priorities because I'm finishing up a 3.6 swop, suspension and brake upgrade. Once that's done, I'm back to cosmetics.
I knew about the trim. I forgot to mention that they also installed the glass once without the trim. I think they forced it in after the fact. It doesn't look as bad in person as in the picture.

The really sad thing is that I didn't have any concern taking it to HBL. I figured if they had any issues they would let me know up front. He told me that it wasn't their mainstay, but they had some good mechanics that could handle an older car.

I checked in regularly and on the first wisper of any issues with the glass, I compiled everything I could find on the the installation and gave it to them.
Its most unfortunate that the GM has stopped responding to my e-mails.

I was really upset for a while, but life is too short and I need to move on.
I'm sure they were banking on the fact that I would give up on this!

Darnestown is out River Road past Potomac, but before Poolseville or south of Germantown. I'm about 15 miles from the beltway.
I'd love the help if you have some time. I'd like to get the mechanical stuff sorted out, but it would makes sense to do this before I reinstall the rear shelf and seats. So really I'll do it at your convienance.
Thanks alot!

[1982911SCTarga]

I've been remiss in not tying up some loose ends with this project.

William, shoot me a PM or an e-mail and we can get together and I can lend you a hand when you're ready. However, I would say this project is definitely not an afternoon or even a weekend venture. It can take time.

Some final tidbits:

-- Use a 50-50 mix of dishwashing soap and water to keep things slippery as you install the rear window. I brushed this solution using a throwaway paint brush around the pinch-weld flange and around the outside portion of where the window meets the seal. Things need to "float" around as you begin roping the seal in.

-- For rope, I used a softish poly 1/4-inch rope that I found at Lowe's. If you run a paper towel moistened with your soap solution, the rope is easier to insert into the seal, and it will smooth the pulling at that stage of the game.

-- Be prepared for failures and re-tries. The seal will slip off, things can get mis-aligned and other challenges can crop up. Be patient. I had to remove the window after the photo above because the seal was not correctly seated on the window on one side.

-- On the re-try, I followed the factory workshop recommendation by making a loop overlap of my pulling rope at the bottom center of the window, with the ends of the rope crossing for a few inches at the top center. This allows you to pull from the bottom and then at the top. This is what the factory workshop manual advises -- pull in 7 inches or so at the bottom rear center and then pull in the top front. Keep things slippery and you'll need two people, one to press the seal in where you're roping and one to pull the rope. The person helping you needs to be a good listener and communicator to tell you what they're feeling and seeing. Following the intial roping (center bottom and top front), we roped in the front portion to where we were near the corners. After some careful slapping and positioning we went around the two sharp corners and stopped. We completed the roping in by going back to the rear and roping to the front.

-- Be prepared to make adjustments and recognize nuances. A picking tool carefully used is your friend. Also I used a thin plastic putty knife at times to keep the seal aligned and in the right position. Use plenty of packing tape around the front of the seal to keep the seal in place as you move along (insert your pulling string first). This is important because the seal will not want to stay on in the top front rounded corners. You can peel off the tape and pull it from the inside to remove pieces as you rope along. You really have to develop a "feel" for what's going on.

-- Once the window is installed you're faced with getting the wiring harness through the body grommet -- and this is tight and you can't see what's going on. Slick everything up with your soap solution. Insert the two longest wires first through the body grommet. The two brown ground wires that are connected to a round copper washer/connector go next. I used a pulling wire wrapped around the copper washer to pull the brown wires through. I also carefully bent the washer (you can easily flatten it back out) to help get it through. Once you've got those wires through, tug on the entire bundle and it will -- amazingly -- go through if you've properly slickened things.

That's all there is to it ...

Seriously, this is probably a 10 on a one to 10 Porsche difficulty scale with 10 being the most challenging. It's do-able, but you've got to be exceptionally patient, be willing to spend the time it takes, be able to learn and adapt from setbacks, etc., etc. Stay positive and remember that people built the car and people can fix them.

I would also recommend that anyone considering doing a Targa rear window seal to first install a front windshield seal. They're two quite different animals, but at least you will have gained some valuable experience on a significantly easier task.

While I don't exactly relish mechanical challenges, I like knowing the job was done "right" while saving a buck or two.

I'll be at Hershey on Saturday (good weather, I hope) if anyone wants to discuss things in more detail, or just BS about our great cars.

Brian

[1982911SCTarga]

The final install (completed last week). I'm glad this task is finished.



Brian

[Brian 162]

I've been replacing the rear seal on my coupe. The one thing I learned is paitence is the key. I spent an hour transfering the wires from the old moulding to the new moulding. I checked and checked before I drilled the holes for the defroster wires.
Fast forward 3 weeks. All that is left to do id re-install the trim in the moulding.
As far as installing the window I'm chickening out and letting my upholsterer do it.

[1982911SCTarga]

Lots of guys have done coupe rear windows. Once you've got the aluminum trim back on, the hard work's pretty much over. Roping the new seal/window in shouldn't be terribly difficult. Use lots of soapy solution and have a helper to work from either inside or outside and you can get it done.

Targa rear windows are challenging because the window pinch-weld flange goes from being like the windshield is all the way around (but only at the rear), then curving to 45 and 90 degrees and becoming horizontal at the top. You've got to keep you eye on lots of things as you move along.

Brian

[1982911SCTarga]

For what it's worth, the Haynes Porsche 911 repair manual has some info on seal replacements, with a couple of pics and illustrations. Haynes refers to the aluminum trim as a bezel. So, when you're in your garage doing this job, ask your helper, "Where's the bezel, bub?"

Brian

[William Miller]

Great Job Brian! Did I mention that my Cab was that same color or very close. Love it!

When you mentioned the Haynes book, I remembered that I had scaned those pages in some time ago. Although not exactly the same as the rear, it helps understand the whole process.
The cross section is the best I've seen in all the manuals.

BTW, where did you pick up the seal? Remember HBL told me the one I got from Pelican was the wrong seal. (I doubt it.)

Here goes:::

DON'T THEY MAKE IT LOOK EASY!