Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[bkreigsr]

sorry, I was looking here: Buy High Performance Oils & Lubricants Online
which is why I've continued with BP

[tchanson]

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

sorry, I was looking here: Buy High Performance Oils & Lubricants Online
which is why I've continued with BP

Thanks. Its the same $10.99 price there as well.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by jpahemi

Has anyone seen or tried Porsche's newly introduced line of motor oils? I recently saw an ad in the recent Excellence Magazine. Seems as if Porsche is looking to expand their "Classic" Line by offering specifically blended oils for two specific engine groups. The red can is a mineral base targeted for the 2.0-2.7 liter engines, and the silver can is a synthetic/synthetic blend for the 3.0 & up engines.
I don't have much info on it, other than what I read in the ad.
'Just curious if anyone has any additional feedback....

Regards,

JP
NY.

Here's a six page thread on it -

Porsche Classic Motor Oil

[bcgreen]

I wonder if it makes a difference if the car is for the European market or ROW, and not designed for the American market, do I have more choices other than what I have using which is Valvoline VR1?

[gwinnch]

May have missed this in the thread: any opinions on using the Red Line additive?
Red Line Synthetic Oil - Motor Oil - Engine Oil Break-In Additive

[gwinnch]

Anyone tried or have an opinion on the Red Line Engine Oil Break In additive? I'm considering adding some to the fairly new Castrol 20/50 I'm running now.

[Concestor0]

This is an interesting new finding by ExxonMobil on how ZDDP protects our engines. I assumed that they already knew already but apparently not.

Addressing long-standing mysteries behind anti-wear motor oil additive -- ScienceDaily

[otto_kretschmer]

my favorite wrench is Dave Radmacher in Tucson. Dave uses Rotella for his cars. I'll probably do the same whenever I get my 911 back on the road

[WANNA930]

So many of these oil posts on a lot of different sites. I hate to say it but I don't take any recommendation unless there is full disclosure from the person making it. MFG's flood the internet forums with their names and even offer payment in form of advertising. In other word don't take what you read as faq.

Plus everybody is reading what oil is good for a particular application and applying it to theirs. One weekend racer and the other starts their car up every month and goes nowhere. Might require 2 different oils??

Also a lot of these pushed Co's are just private labeling another product and don't mfg a thing but a label. Numbers can be made to lean whatever way the tester wants so again read with caution.

Buy the right grade and change it often for street driving that is all you need. If you are claiming oil is fixing another issue you still haven't fixed it and I doubt it was effected by the oil. Have the old lady pick a pretty label out for you in some cases that might be just as scientific a pick as reading 1000pages.

[HarryD]

WANNA930,

Good points. FYI, I am just a guy who wants to know the right thing to do also.

For me, 20W50 Brad Penn or 15W40 HEDO Oils (Rotella or Delo) are the only way to go for my 1973.

[big911fan]

I agree with both of the above posts. Just give me the independent science and engineering behind the claims and let me decide. Forget the anecdotal evidence, marketing hype, uneducated theories, and second hand information. Just the facts please...

In the case of the Penn study, it would be interesting to see what conclusion they draw about the reduced effects of ZDDP in modern oils since ZDDP is almost ready to be listed on the endangered species list! How do the modern oils stack up for true wear protection vs higher ZDDP levels and why? At least temporarily put aside higher mileage and cat converters for a true wear discussion.

[HarryD]

My selections are based on conversations with engine builders who observed flat cams in flat tappet valves following the introduction of reduced ZDDP in motor oils.

Seems like more than just anadocal evidence especially when you look at the work by SAE many years ago on the topic.

[big911fan]

I'm absolutely agreeing with you on why we use high ZDDP oils. The use was well documented in prior studies. My point was that I'd like to see the science and engineering behind the effects of reduced ZDDP in the latest oils. At what point do they fail to give us the same protection we see and need in oils like BP, ZR1, and HD oils for older flat tappet engines and how well do they really protect newer engines?

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by big911fan

I'm absolutely agreeing with you on why we use high ZDDP oils. The use was well documented in prior studies. My point was that I'd like to see the science and engineering behind the effects of reduced ZDDP in the latest oils. At what point do they fail to give us the same protection we see and need in oils like BP, ZR1, and HD oils for older flat tappet engines and how well do they really protect newer engines?

The reason the lower ZDDP is ok for newer engines (mid '90s) is due to the fact all manufacturers have transitioned to roller tappets to improve gas mileage. They have a much lower point pressure and the antiwear additives do not need to be as robust. This has been documented by SAE and engine builders can attest to the impacts..

[M.D. Holloway]

It seems like only a few years ago the American Petroleum Institute (API) service category for heavy-duty diesel motor oil C-J4 engine oil specification was launched. Actually it was over 10 years ago. Prior to the implementation there was a combination of enthusiasm and skepticism. Some thought that the new specification would provide lower pollutants with a reduction in sulfonated ash and lower zinc phosphorus compounds as not to poison the new emissions system while others thought that engine wear would increase dramatically due to the reduced zinc phosphorus compounds that have been used for decades as anti-wear agents. It has been argued that both occurred. Whether you were for it or against you had no choice but to comply. Engine oil blenders, engine and component manufacturers developed product to meet the government requirement. The time is drawing near when a new specification for engine oil shall be introduced. It is in the ‘Proposed Category” with engine makers and oil formulators. For now it is referred to as PC-11. The API will apply a new name upon approval. This new requirement is considered the most drastic to date.

The requirements put forth by the API are based on federal requirements to lower emissions (Green House Gas Reduction) and increase fuel efficiency. The most significant aspect of this new category is in viscosity. Example - normally the factory fill requirements for diesel engine oil are SAE 15W-40 with a few exceptions calling out for SAE 10W-30. The viscosity is classified according to kinematic viscosity analysis. The new category would use a different test method and actually be a grade thinner; SAE 5W-30. The reasoning is based on establishing less resistance to flow within the engine while maintaining film strength to continue to afford protection. A thinner oil has been shown to achieve this yet in order for it to continue to provide performance, various ingredients have to be used to provide functionality. The old method of qualifying the viscosity (the kinematic method) cannot be used. The new method – High Temperature High Shear rheometry has to be used. Another challenge for oil formulators is to make the new blend backward compatible with CJ-4 oil and maintain engine durability. There are meetings underway within API as well as the New Category Evaluation Team (NCET) that are comprised of representatives from the Truck and Engine Manufacturers Assn. (EMA), API, and the American Chemistry Council (ACC) as well as members drawn from oil additive suppliers and industry testing labs to move in a measured and defined manner addressing all concerns of these category. If the category gets split, there will be much work ahead.

The first new category shall have to be formulated to meet the heavy-duty engine oil represented by CJ-4. The CJ-4 category is an example of almost 50 years of specifications that have been updated and improved upon to address the growing concerns of performance. This requirement will look to be developed and implemented for off-road engines (mining, construction, agricultural applications), remain backward compatible yet provides the normal film strength and thickness. The requirement is based on durability and not necessarily on fuel economy. The second new category would be for over the road engines (fleets and service) and while maintaining engine durability the main focus would be to use the lower-viscosity formula to significantly boost fuel efficiency and emission requirements. This is where the new SAE5W-30 oils may reside. The odds of having one category to address these separate concerns are long. It is highly likely there will be two separate categories.

While this may seem very confusing for the end user, consider oil blenders and the engine builders. They will have to consider several more requirements such as new oil performance to include new oxidation, ring wear, piston scuffing, oil aeration, and viscosity increase requirements. This shall be no easy task yet fortunately preliminary work suggest that the goal to create an engine oil for improved wear protection, improved emissions and fuel economy is well within reach. The new category is expected to go into effect in 2016.

[Trackrash]

^^^Wow, good information.

Originally Posted by HarryD

WANNA930,

Good points. FYI, I am just a guy who wants to know the right thing to do also.

For me, 20W50 Brad Penn or 15W40 HEDO Oils (Rotella or Delo) are the only way to go for my 1973.

I used Rotella for years and still do in my VW Bug. I am woried that Rotella no longer has the high level of zinc. Can anyone find a current data sheet for it?

[M.D. Holloway]

It should be fine. All the majors have adjusted their oils to provide as good a benefit as possible for oils that are commercially available. If you are really concerned (and you shouldn't be), Pelican does offer oil analysis through Blackstone labs I believe. They have passenger car motor oil experience (PCMO). They are no ALS Tribology but should provide insight and piece of mind.

While wear is always a concern with engine oil, there are other things that are of equal concern such as contamination (road dirt, water, even fuel and coolant) and oil condition swing (viscosity, alkalinity reserve to neutralize acids (TBN) and oxidation).

I have seen severe duty engines (both gas and diesel) engage in extended time on the oil with very little wear issues - most problems come from contamination. Good air and oil filters make a big difference. Start with looking at a filters absolute micron size (lower the better) and its Bata ratio (higher the better). While these numbers are a start point the best way to know what is best is to keep engaging on the forum - this place is a well of experiences.

(FWIW - Lake Speed Jr has done an excellent job formulating for the Joe Gibbs oil - I recommended it)

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by big911fan

I agree with both of the above posts. Just give me the independent science and engineering behind the claims and let me decide. Forget the anecdotal evidence, marketing hype, uneducated theories, and second hand information. Just the facts please...

In the case of the Penn study, it would be interesting to see what conclusion they draw about the reduced effects of ZDDP in modern oils since ZDDP is almost ready to be listed on the endangered species list! How do the modern oils stack up for true wear protection vs higher ZDDP levels and why? At least temporarily put aside higher mileage and cat converters for a true wear discussion.

Definitive oil studies and conclusions? I would take reports from oil manufacturers only at face value. Same with anecdotal accounts from various car owners, as well intentioned as they may be.

For another POV, this article is from the same author (SAE member) cited by Gordon (Trackrash) in his post (#2018, page 51). In it, the author, S. Maas, provides his opinions on the ZDDP/Phosphorous issue. However, it's dated 2009 and oil formulations do change, so I wouldn't take specific oil recommendations as current, but he includes some links to other oil studies in case one needs more authoritative opinions on the subject.

The 1960 Austin Healey Sprite

Look for
"ZDDP and Older Automobile Engines" by Steve Maas.

Sherwood

[big911fan]

Yes, now you're getting to my point. Do the newer oil formulations with lower ZDDP levels provide worse, equal, or better protection for older flat tappet vehicles. Many of us doubt the claims coming from oil manufactures that oil is truly backward compatible. It seems the expert engine builders agree or perhaps managed to convince us that they're correct.

However, if a truly independent study, such as the Penn study, were to conclude that wear from these newer oil formulations on older cars with flat tappets and higher valve spring pressures is not a problem, I might rethink my personal biases. Until then I'll be conservative and opt for higher ZDDP levels. Why risk it?

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Definitive oil studies and conclusions? I would take reports from oil manufacturers only at face value. Same with anecdotal accounts from various car owners, as well intentioned as they may be.

For another POV, this article is from the same author (SAE member) cited by Gordon (Trackrash) in his post (#2018, page 51). In it, the author, S. Maas, provides his opinions on the ZDDP/Phosphorous issue. However, it's dated 2009 and oil formulations do change, so I wouldn't take specific oil recommendations as current, but he includes some links to other oil studies in case one needs more authoritative opinions on the subject.

The 1960 Austin Healey Sprite

Look for
"ZDDP and Older Automobile Engines" by Steve Maas.

Sherwood

Sherwood, thanks for the article link. It seems to confirm what I have been thinking. Our 911 motors (high revving, high tappet contact pressures) benefit from the higher (1200 ppm) levels of zinc and phosphorus. Use of additives is risky, at best.

On the other hand, my VW 1600 cc air cooled motor may not be adversely impacted.

Best.