Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

While I do not completely agree with the conclusions in this test..it makes interesting reading. ZDDP not really needed?

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/November-1-2010.php

The oil thread that would not die.

At this point, one should have enough data to process and move in a direction or not ever change your oil.

Sherwood

[M.D. Holloway]

Wow, you guys are particular to the Nth degree! I'm not convinced anyone on the board allows there oil to sit in the crank for more than 2000 miles before they freak out and change it!

The interesting observation is that Porsche owners do not compromise can be seen in their purchase selection of oil, filters and even fuel. Any consumable is questioned. Its no wonder these cars stay on the roads for decades! Imagine if all owners of all cars had such passion. Imagine if companies and families had such passion!

Royal Purple (and several others) make fine products. You can't go wrong with them. They all have their benefits and a few drawbacks but when you compare technologies of the boutique brands to the '7 Sisters' there is little comparison. The boutique brands (RP, Brad Penn, Red Line, Certified Labs, Amsoil) will all do fantastic and the chances of finding one better than the other in turns of overall performance will be tough to discover. The base oil selection, the add-pacs they buy from the typical 3 and the blending/filtering/packaging and QA/QC they all do is very good and the difference in all are so minute that you really would not witness a real difference. Now if the you compare the typical offering of these to a 'performance offering' by one of the '7 Sisters', the comparison is stark.

[M.D. Holloway]

Interesting marketing ploy by - get on tech forums and pitch your brand. Hmmm...sound familiar?

(of course, I have never sold anything to anyone in this community but sure have given a bunch away...)

[M.D. Holloway]

Found this time line - I will have to check facts but it seems like it is correct. Its not complete but offers up a little history.


1877 - C. Friedler and J.M. Crafts synthesize the first "synthetic" hydrocarbons.
1913 - Friedrich Bergius in Germany develops Hydrogenation process for production of synthetic oil from coal dust
1921 - Standard Oil in USA produces one barrel of synthetic oil from one ton of shale rock
1921 - Friedrich Bergius in Germany develops commercial process for hydrogenation of coal to synthetic oil
1925 - In Germany Franz Fisher and Hans Tropsch develop Synthetic Oil industrial production process
1926 - I.G. Farben acquired the patent rights to the Bergius hydrogenation process for production of synthetic oil from coal
1927 - I.G. Farben's Leuna works start synthetic oil production
1929 - Standard Oil of Indiana makes the first attempt at commercial development of synthetic hydrocarbons. Many gallons of synthetic oil were made by polymerization of different olefins.
1930-34 - Union Carbide and Carbon Corp develop and investigate the applications of water soluble Polyalkylene Glycol (PAG)
1931 - Nobel Prize for Chemistry: Friedrich Bergius & Carl Bosch, Invention and development of chemical high pressure methods (used for synthetic oil production)
1932 - I.G. Farben investment into synthetic fuels production from coal
1936 - Adolf Hitler in Germany starts Major synthetic fuels and oil program
1937 - First Polyalphaolefins were synthesized
1939 - Fischer-Tropsh process that used carbon monoxide and hydrogen to make synthetic oils and fuels was commercialized in Germany
1942-45 - PAG synthetic oils used in fleets and commercial vehicles
1944-1954 - 10% of German supply of lubricating oil is "synthetic", made by using three different processes
1944 - US Army aircraft operating in Alaska and Canada use PAG engine oils
1944-45 - The idea of using colloidal solids in synthetic fluids for lubrication of the first jet engines is tested and researched in Germany
1946 - National Carbide Company, Inc. markets the "First" commercial PAG engine oils Prestone Motor Oil
1946 - New York Power & Light Corp uses PAG engine oils in variety of their commercial vehicles.
1942-1955 - Diester oils are used in turbine engines because Petroleum oil simply was inadequate to meet the demands of these engines.
1962 - Texaco produces Synthetic Aircraft Turbine Oil
1962-66 - U.S. Army experiences significant problems in operating vehicles and equipment in Alaska with MIL-L-10295 Lubricating Oil.
1965 - Mobil introduces fully synthetic grease
1966 - First Syn! Synthetic Super Lubricants produced in Canada
1966 - Motul introduces first semi-synthetic motor oil in France
1968 - U.S. Army develops MIL-L-46167 specification, which can be satisfied only with PAO synthetic oil
1969 - SynLube Company is formed in Vancouver, B.C. Canada – it’s specialty the first "syn-sol".
1970’s - Arab Oil embargo prompts interest in "synthetic" oils
1971 - Motul in France introduces first all-synthetic oil in Europe
1972 - AMSOIL is formed and markets re-labeled MIL specification oils to motoring public through multi-level "pyramid" type organization.
1974 - Mobil test markets Mobil 1 synthetic SAE 5W-20 "synthesized engine lubricant"
1976 - Mobil 1 goes national in USA and changes the product description to "synthetic" motor oil
1980 - Mobil introduces second generation synthetic motor oil Mobil 1 available as SAE 5W-30 and 15W-50
1982 - SynLube in Canada produces first SAE 5W-50 all synthetic non-petroleum motor oil
1984 - Agip in Italy introduces synthetic motor oil SAE 10W-50
1985 - U.S. Army uses the MIL-L-46167 lubes in other than arctic conditions.
1986 - Mobil only in Europe introduces Rally Formula Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-50
1990 - Quaker State introduces line of Synquest synthetic lubricants: grease NLGI No.2 GC-LB, motor oil SAE 5W-50 and gear oil SAE 75W-90
1990 - SynLube opens sales office in Las Vegas, Nevada USA
1990 - Chevron introduces synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-30 and 5W-50
1992 - Mobil introduces Advanced Formula Mobil 1 motor oil SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 15W-50
1992 - Formulation of first SAE 0W-60 motor oil in Germany
1992 - Valvoline introduces synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 20W-50
1992 - CASTROL introduces Syntec SAE 5W-50 motor oil based on PAO
1993 - Texaco introduces Havoline Synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-40
1993 - Pennzoil introduces Performax synthetic motor oil SAE 5W-50
1993 - Sunoco introduces DynaTech synthetic engine oils SAE 20W-50 and 5W-40
1993 - Sta-Lube launches marketing of synthetic gear oils and synthetic industrial grease
1994 - Pep Boys starts selling synthetic motor oil under their own brand name SAE 5W-30, 10W-30 and 20W-50
1994 - Petrolon introduces synthetic motor oil under Slick 50 brand name
1994 - Synthoil starts marketing of SAE 10W-30 synthetic motor oil
1992 - CASTROL reformulates Syntec motor oils with API Group III (petroleum) base stock from Shell
1999 - Mobil introduces Mobil 1 "Tri-synthetic" version of their motor oil
1999 - NAD rules that hydroisomerized base oils (Group III) can be classified as "synthetic oils"
1999 - Exxon and Mobil merges to ExxonMobil.
2000 - Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic-Blend motor oil
2002 - Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic motor oil with SuperSyn.
2003 - Mobil 1 introduces SAE 0W-30 RACING Synthetic motor oil.
2005 - Mobil 1 introduces Synthetic motor oil with 15,000 mile advertised service life.

[richardlw]

While it is an interesting article, the times and variables are way too much to draw valid conclusions. And the 2000 hour aircraft rebuild does not compare to the typical 24,000 hours that we can run diesel engines or 12,000+ that we run gasoline engines.

In the thousands of oil analysis that I've seen over the last 15+ years I have seen huge differences in wear in many engines just based on additive level. When I can replace a given oil with a good one in the same engine, or in half of a fleet of 40 of identical vehicles and dramatically reduce the wear, there is something to it.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

Wow, you guys are particular to the Nth degree! I'm not convinced anyone on the board allows there oil to sit in the crank for more than 2000 miles before they freak out and change it!

The interesting observation is that Porsche owners do not compromise can be seen in their purchase selection of oil, filters and even fuel. Any consumable is questioned. Its no wonder these cars stay on the roads for decades! Imagine if all owners of all cars had such passion. Imagine if companies and families had such passion!

Royal Purple (and several others) make fine products. You can't go wrong with them. They all have their benefits and a few drawbacks but when you compare technologies of the boutique brands to the '7 Sisters' there is little comparison. The boutique brands (RP, Brad Penn, Red Line, Certified Labs, Amsoil) will all do fantastic and the chances of finding one better than the other in turns of overall performance will be tough to discover. The base oil selection, the add-pacs they buy from the typical 3 and the blending/filtering/packaging and QA/QC they all do is very good and the difference in all are so minute that you really would not witness a real difference.

Now if the you compare the typical offering of these to a 'performance offering' by one of the '7 Sisters', the comparison is stark.

Lube:

Thanks for your thoughts. I highlighted your last sentence.

I tend to agree that among the quality competitors, there is not much to separate them. It seems a good plan is to pick a quality vendor and stick with them.

As to the last sentence, I must be slow, do you mean that even the "performance offerings" by the 7 sisters are not up to the standards we expect from the "boutique brands"?

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[huba]

My eyes are crossed and my head is sspinning after reading most of 50? pages of technical and emotional input{hype?} Somewhere along the line I got the impression that I've got he wrong oil in my car. Tell me it ai'nt so.I'm new to the 911 ownership gang (1978 911SC with 170,000). My son has owned the car for the previous 16 years. Well cared for , only minor oil leak, no smoke to speak of.So, when it came time for an oil change I queried the 911 BBS website --no rsponse. Not being a chemical engineer (Aero/Astro), I did my own research and came upwith-----Eneos 5W30 a full syn Japanese oil. No idea of ZDDP or any other desireable features . Is this oil passable or should I switch toBrad Penn20W50 immediately? Thanks guys.

[Trackrash]

You should change. Brad Penn 20w50 may be a good option for you. The bottom line is you should be using an oil that has either a 40 or 50 as the last number. They have the wear additives (most likely right now anyway) that you need. Keep in mind that 911s have air cooled motors that were designed a long time ago.

There is a good article in this month's Panorama about the current recommendation for 911 oils.

As far as synthetics go that depends. If you are seeing oil temps around 220 or higher synthetics would be a good choice.

For my old '71 I never see oil temps above 210 or so and the oil gets dirty after 2-3 thousand miles so I found conventional oils to be more cost effective.
I was running 15-40 (for diesels) but have switched to Valvoline 20-50 since I track the car now.

You read this whole thread?

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by huba

My eyes are crossed and my head is sspinning after reading most of 50? pages of technical and emotional input{hype?} Somewhere along the line I got the impression that I've got he wrong oil in my car. Tell me it ai'nt so.I'm new to the 911 ownership gang (1978 911SC with 170,000). My son has owned the car for the previous 16 years. Well cared for , only minor oil leak, no smoke to speak of.So, when it came time for an oil change I queried the 911 BBS website --no rsponse. Not being a chemical engineer (Aero/Astro), I did my own research and came upwith-----Eneos 5W30 a full syn Japanese oil. No idea of ZDDP or any other desireable features . Is this oil passable or should I switch toBrad Penn20W50 immediately? Thanks guys.

Somewhere here is a list of 3 brands/models, BP 20-50 is one of them. If you are trying to find an oil significantly better than the likes of BP, it will likely be difficult and difficult to prove. I think we may be at the point of diminishing returns implied two posts up. IMHO get BP 20-50 or 15-40 (or one of the other two) and put efforts on the next P-car project(s).

[db_cooper]

Brad Penn..good oil. Big ZDDP..I use the motorcycle version in old DOHC bucket designed engines.

For many years I have used Rotella T with excellent results in my 911s.

Even the new Rotella T6 has a stout additive package 1252/1105 ZDDP based on this virgin oil analysis.

Shell Rotella T 5w40 VOA - Bob Is The Oil Guy

Easy to find and 5w40 can be used year round.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by huba

My eyes are crossed and my head is sspinning after reading most of 50? pages of technical and emotional input{hype?} Somewhere along the line I got the impression that I've got he wrong oil in my car. Tell me it ai'nt so.I'm new to the 911 ownership gang (1978 911SC with 170,000). My son has owned the car for the previous 16 years. Well cared for , only minor oil leak, no smoke to speak of.So, when it came time for an oil change I queried the 911 BBS website --no rsponse. Not being a chemical engineer (Aero/Astro), I did my own research and came upwith-----Eneos 5W30 a full syn Japanese oil. No idea of ZDDP or any other desireable features . Is this oil passable or should I switch toBrad Penn20W50 immediately? Thanks guys.

Ok, your car, your money, your choice.

I would not put this oil in my car. Why?

1) Weight - Unless it is really cold, our cars need a heavier oil. Most of us use 20W-50 or 15W-40. You can see what Porsche recommends here:

Originally Posted by 84_Carrera

This is from my '84 911's owner's manual.



I did 20/50 3-seasons, and 10/40 in the winter... noticing pretty normal engine oil temps with 10/40 in the winter, and easier cold turn-overs.

Use at your own discretion.

2) API Specs-For most oils today, to meet SM/SN specification, the levels of ZDDP is severely reduced below what was inteneded for our engines. Only the heaveir grades (typically 15W-50) are allowed to have higher levels. This oils is rated API SN/RC ILSAC GF-5. Not a good sign.

3) My Cliff notes on this topic:

Originally Posted by HarryD

While we can continue to debate weight a very improtant issue is adequate wear additives for our flat tappet engines. The the lighter API SM/SN oils (ones other than the 20W-50 and other heavy oils) are required to have reduced level of Zinc and Phosphorus (ZDDP).

Why is ZDDP Important to us? Because motor oils have not changed for the better for older cars.

While very long, well worth the read: Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

If you really do not want to wade through this thread, Cliff Notes version:

Buy and use whatever you want. It used to be true that "oil is oil". But be aware that motor oils have changed and not for the better.

A bit of history:

Prior to the mid 90s most cars on the road had flat tappets to actuate thier valves. It turns out there is a huge amount of pressure on the tappet/cam surface when it is actuated. This effect was discovered in the '50's (I may have the wrong decade but you get the picture) and a minor outfit called SAE noticed that cams were wearing out very quickly.

SAE paid some PhD's to do some research. They published lots of research papers and found out about these high pressures. They also found that a Zinc/Phosphorus additive known as ZDDP would provide protection to these parts at a resaonable cost. Gosh those guys were smart!

The SAE folks spoke with the API folks and asked if they could require ZDDP added to their required oil formulations to increase the service life of these critical components. Much to the pleasure of SAE, API agreed and based on the PhD recommendations, required about 1200 ppm of Zinc (Zn) and Phosphorus (P) added to oil formulations so the oil maker can get his product API certified.

This worked great but then in the 90's car makers went to more expensive Roller tappets which offered the advantage of lower reciprocating losses in the engine (i.e. better gas mileage). The use of roller tappets became standard in cars in the mid-90's.

In the early 2000's, the USEPA (for what ever reason) became concerned that the Zinc and Phosphurus in the oil would partially exit the engine via the tail pipe. This is a big deal since these two elements tend to kill the catalytic converters and, in theory diminish their service life. As a result EPA wanted the reduce the Zinc and Phosphorus in motor oils.

Fortunately (for EPA), car makers had already gone to roller tappets. Again the PhD's went to work. The clever PhD's found that the roller tappets do not exert the high pressures that flat tappets do. They did some more reaserch and found that for car with Roller Tappets, you could safely reduce ZDDP to a much lower level with no adverse impact on cam service life.

This change was codified in the API SM/CJ4 (and newer) oil standards. And while some formulations are permitted to have higher Zn and P, the cost of ZDDP relative to base motor oil is much higher and if the oil maker wants to save some money (i.e. increase profit or lower price) he merely needs to reduce the use of this relatively expensive additive and still claim conformance to API requirements.

Older engines (pre-mid 90's) STILL need high levels (around 1200 ppm plus correct level of detergents) of Zinc (Zn) and Phosphorus (P) to protect cams and other high pressure surfaces.

Use 20W-50 or 15W-40 oil. Brands frequently sugggested here, in no particular order, include:

Brad Penn 20W-50
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50
Kendall GT 20W-50
SWEPCO 15W-40
Royal Purple
Redline
Motorcycle Oils

There are others as well

Best of luck.

[larrym]

Harry's chart tells the story perfectly

the only reason to use multi-grade is if you live where it gets too cold to start the car on a single-grade high viscosity fluid (maybe like in Grand Junction)

"too cold to start" is not about cranking speed, tho that is an artifact of the situation

- it is about having adequate oil film and pumping flow necessary to keep the metal parts separated during startup and initial cold running. - low viscosity base oils do that protection job at very low temperatures, (ah, the light will go out sooner!)

according to various SAE papers, multi grade oils which rely on polymers that "unwind" and interfere with the flow of the "light" base, do oil not reach full high-viscosity until they reach 210* F -

yes, new Hondas (etc) are designed differently, so they can run with the lighter viscosities for "normal driving" - whatever that is

.

[huba]

Thanks guys! I did read most of the 50 pages including the chart by HarryD which he reposted graciously. I know viscosities, but didn't understand the reasoning behind the need for high viscosity in air cooled--never used it in VW and I've had quite a few of those. The oil will come out shortly to be replaced by 20W50 Brad Penn. I will donate this to my old Grand cherokee for the next few oil changes (the oil coming out of the 911--almost new). Thanks again for the input.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by larrym

Harry's chart tells the story perfectly

the only reason to use multi-grade is if you live where it gets too cold to start the car on a single-grade high viscosity fluid (maybe like in Grand Junction)

"too cold to start" is not about cranking speed, tho that is an artifact of the situation

- it is about having adequate oil film and pumping flow necessary to keep the metal parts separated during startup and initial cold running. - low viscosity base oils do that protection job at very low temperatures, (ah, the light will go out sooner!)

according to various SAE papers, multi grade oils which rely on polymers that "unwind" and interfere with the flow of the "light" base, do oil not reach full high-viscosity until they reach 210* F -

yes, new Hondas (etc) are designed differently, so they can run with the lighter viscosities for "normal driving" - whatever that is

.

I change the oil in my 911 about once per year (3-4000 miles). Here in Oregon, I see temeprature swings from 40 F to 95+F when I drive. Looking at the chart, looks like 20W-50 for me. FWIW, I have run 15W-40 in the past but it tended to leak more.

[Jhboult]

I just picked up an '87 Targa. It looks like the PO and possibly previous PO's used Castrol GTX HM 20w-50. It has been down in greater houston and austin area its whole life. I was thinking of going back with the same, but noticed the Kendall Titanium was $55 for a case of 12 quarts with free shipping on amazon prime. I know oil is HUGE debate, but would the consensus be that the Kendall is more recommended than the GTX? Keep in mind, i live in Coastal houston. Will change oil every 3k.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Jhboult

I just picked up an '87 Targa. It looks like the PO and possibly previous PO's used Castrol GTX HM 20w-50. It has been down in greater houston and austin area its whole life. I was thinking of going back with the same, but noticed the Kendall Titanium was $55 for a case of 12 quarts with free shipping on amazon prime. I know oil is HUGE debate, but would the consensus be that the Kendall is more recommended than the GTX? Keep in mind, i live in Coastal houston. Will change oil every 3k.

Welcome to the BBS on earth. It is customary for you to post a few pictrues of your ride so we can appreciate you car.

In the '80's I lived in Clear Lake City. Intersting place.

Anyway, on to oil. Peter Zimmerman (author of Used 911 Story) likes Kendall.

Many (more knowledgable than me) say to stay away from Castrol.

I use Brad Penn.

[Jhboult]

I just bought the 12 quarts of Kendall on Amazon Prime. I guess I joined that side of this battle. We shall see.....
Here is a link to my intro thread with Pics. Next stop, Trans fluid, fuel additive, and AC replacement (on top of all the minor parts and bits i have on order).

My New '87 Targa

[tcar]

Anyone know if Mobil 1 V-Twin 4-cycle is OK for an SC?

... didn't know if they changed the formula.

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by tcar

Anyone know if Mobil 1 V-Twin 4-cycle is OK for an SC?

... didn't know if they changed the formula.

Can't say about formula changes but I have been using it in my race car for a year or so...

[AlfonsoR]

Originally Posted by tcar

Anyone know if Mobil 1 V-Twin 4-cycle is OK for an SC?

... didn't know if they changed the formula.

I haven't heard of a formula change but I haven't looked lately. If you google the oil plus ZDDP, you should find a list on one of exxon mobil's sites indicating the content.

I use it in my 89 911 too. If you want to make absolutely sure, the best thing to do is to have an oil analysis done. You could even have a sample (virgin oil) analyzed before you put it in your car. I personally haven't done that though.